Monday, January 26, 2009

They aren't even bothering to pretend anymore...

Raedwald has a thoroughly enraging story up at present.
Have you paid a parking fine recently? Got three points on your licence? Been formally warned by the council for your bin protruding on the footway? (yep, I have had the £1,000 fine threat on the last one) Been suspended from your Sunday football league for rough tackling? (yes, seriously) Congratulations! Your records could soon be added to a pan-European database of subversives.

Really? How? And what the fuck for?
This EU Council decision of 20th January [PDF] on the establishment of a pan-EU 'criminal' database includes the following 'offences':
  • Offences related to waste

  • Unintentional environmental offences

  • Insult of the State, Nation or State symbols

  • Insult or resistance to a representative of public authority

  • Public order offences, breach of the public peace

  • Revealing a secret or breaching an obligation of secrecy

  • Unintentional damage or destruction of property

  • Offences against migration law—an "Open category" (offences undefined thus all encompassing)

  • Offences against military obligations—an "Open category" (offences undefined thus all encompassing)

  • Unauthorised entry or residence

  • Other offences—an "Open category" (offences undefined thus all encompassing)

  • Other unintentional offences

  • Prohibition from frequenting some places

  • Prohibition from entry to a mass event

  • Placement under electronic surveillance ("fixed or mobile"—e.g., home, car, mobile phone etc)

  • Withdrawal of a hunting / fishing license

  • Prohibition to play certain games/sports

  • Prohibition from national territory

  • Personal obligation—an "Open category" (offences undefined thus all encompassing)

  • "Fine"—all fines, inc. minor non-criminal offences

We're all going to a totalitarian hell in a handcart. Our politicians, of all stripes and parties, are selling us down the fucking river whilst the British people sleep on.


Fucking. Hell.


Paul R said...

What can we actually do about it?

I talk to people and they either don't see what is happening or reply with words such as "it can't happen now".

I don't see how we get out of this one.

Anonymous said...

We do seem somewhat stuffed.

On this particular issue obviously those categories are so vague anyone could be listed a subversive ... with whatever results that might be, again undefined.

On the general issue as Cabbage says, either people are unaware or not interested it seems. I try to talk to intelligent friends of mine about stuff like this and am either treated as a conspirisist nut-job or told politics is boring.

Hard to know what to do really.

Anonymous said...

I thought we could overturn this by democratic means, but our democracy was dismantled first by Thatcher by abolishing the GLC, and Labour have continued the good work.

Letters From A Tory said...

My god, even by EU standards that is shocking stuff.

If breathing became a criminal offence according to the EU, I wouldn't be surprised. They might start taxing it too.

Sue said...

I'm furious, what are we going to do?

I want to know why the Conservatives haven't opposed this, they're not getting my vote unless it's thrown out!

Anonymous said...

"Insult of the State, Nation or State symbols"

I'm still looking for a supply of EU flag bog roll. Best I have managed to find so far is having 200 rolls specially printed.

pagar said...

They want to make more stupid laws for us to break?

The only answer is to break them to show our defiance then support each other if they come for us.

Join in at

The Nameless Libertarian said...



We need to shout and scream about this; and yes, the British people need to wake up now. Before it is too late.


Anonymous said...

"Insult of the State, Nation or State symbols"

Let me guess - insulting the EU flag will be a criminal offence; Islamist nutjobs burning the Union Jack will not.

"Prohibition to play certain games/sports"

You fucking WHAT? Have I woken up in 1658?

Anonymous said...

As much as I don't agree with it either, the EU decision is to set up a framework of access to each others criminal data, not a central database, your records will still be stored badly by our government, not stored badly by someone elses.
"1. ECRIS is a decentralised information technology system based on the criminal records
databases in each Member State. It is composed of the following elements:
(a) an interconnection software built in compliance with a common set of protocols
enabling the exchange of information between Member States' criminal records
(b) a common communication infrastructure that provides an encrypted network.
2. This Decision is not aimed at establishing any centralised criminal records database. All
criminal records data shall be stored solely in databases operated by the Member States."

WV- terabl -I shit you not

John B said...

...and the info listed in the legislation is a limit, not a minimum requirement - in other words, *if* you live in a country where the activities listed in the legislation are recorded in a criminal records database, *then* your government must make that information available to other EU governments on request.

If you live in a country like the UK, where flag-burning and holocaust denying are rightly legal, then the information on who's burned flags and who's denied the holocaust aren't tracked, and therefore obviously won't be made available to other EU states.

Anonymous said...

812 00 Unintentionally causing minor bodily injury
(the pet shop sells a hamster of volatile temperament, a dad buys a bike for his kid, honeymooners' "chafing"

2203 00 Offences relating to working conditions, health and safety at work (smoking in your van)

the penalties include 5002 Submission to a social-educational program.
7001 Placing in a psychiatric institution
loss of military rank

we also have this -
1101 00 Illicit sexual relations between close family members

however, incestuous relationships are legal in France, if they are between consenting adults. so not actually being a criminal is no barrier to having details included on this database, on the grounds that the EU doesn't like what you do.

Lola said...

Fuck. Me. Pink.

John B said...

No, Anon, you're wrong. If you commit incest with an adult in France, then you won't be prosecuted, and hence the record of you committing the crime won't exist (because you haven't committed a crime), and hence your details won't be on the national criminal records database, and hence they won't be accessible via ECRIS either.

John B said...

(I've written more here)


We know what the eussr intends for us since before they gave the police the right to shoot us down in the street,the only way thier lunacy CAN work is totalitarian,as DK says for fuck sake wake up!

Anonymous said...

We are clearly all criminals, but the EU hasn't yet formally identified us. This however is being put right with considerable haste.

The ultimate irony is that we are turkeys voting for Christmas. We elected these people (at some point in time) so they can declare we are all the enemies - or potential enemies -of the wholesome state.

'Thank you for inviting us into your home. You will now sit back and watch us trash the place, and if you raise the slightest squeak of protest we will castrate you. But please remember, we are doing this for your protection. All hail the "free" people of Eunuchia!"

Anonymous said...

John B, thanks for pointing out my mistake. non-crimes in one part of the EU which are crimes in other parts won't appear on ECRIS.
however, under the Extradition Act 2003 (which includes the European Arrest Warrant) a member state can request an EU citizen's exradition for trial for a crimes which may be a non-crime where he lives. i am thinking of Germany's request to extradite an author on the grounds of "holocaust denial" which is not a crime in UK but it is in Germany. presumably this proceedure (EAW) could be applied in the example of the non-crime (in France) of incest.
an EAW against a Brit would remove the right to a trial by his peers, and should be illegal under UK law.
Englishman - you are right, the Plod have tasers now, cattle-prods for livestock in the EU tax farm.
they are untouchable, ECRIS has a category for those who offer "Insult or resistance to a representative of public authority" - a crime to insult the police, or council?
no-one gives a monkey's, it must be something they put in the water. can we do anything? if so, what? voting isn't the answer, look where it's got us.

John B said...

Agreed, I strongly disapprove of EAWs being issueable for acts that are not offences in the home country.

However, your specific example doesn't work: in the case of the holocaust denier, he was able to be prosecuted in Germany because he published material on the Internet that was accessed from Germany (in the same way that Saudi trillionaires sue American journalists for libel in the UK because four people here accessed the relevant website).

In the case of the adult incest couple, assuming they confined their incest to France they'd be safe from the EAW. The only time it could be a problem would be if they went on holiday to Germany, got caught committing incest, and fled back home to France.

Anonymous said...

John B. - the holocaust denier in that case would be unable to publish a book or pamphlet in the UK as a German could read it or someone else could publish it online. this is really an attack of freedom of speech, and not defensible. especially not by the Germans, who weren't so scrupulous during the 3rd Reich and are trying to make up for their totalitarianism by stifling freedom of speech online. ironic or what?
the unorthodox couple's safety in one part of the EU and not the other is beside the point, of course. the fact that the State takes an interest in private actions of consenting adults, and imprisons them for what is really a victimless crime, is the point.
Labour in the UK has made it illegal to possess "offensive" material involving consenting adults; as a libertarian i object to state interference on any matter where no-one is hurt. what adults do in private is their business, sex, drugs, rock'n'roll, or publishing risible political viewpoints in flat contradiction of the known facts.

Anonymous said...

ok so publishing isn't exactly private, but being able to hold an opinion and state it in public is a fundamental freedom, and to be carted away by Jerry for exercising freedom is really not a good sign.

Anonymous said...


"Insult or resistance to a representative of public authority" can so easily be applied in cases where people are just remonstrating or arguing with jobsworths who are exceeding their authority or being a PITA. It makes them almost unaccountable.

Our hard won British freedoms are going down the pan.

John B said...

1) laws against holocaust denying, although well-meaning and possibly necessary in a situation like Germany in 1946, certainly aren't a good idea in Europe today.

2) globalisation and blogging are both major jurisdictional problems for laws connected to 'publishing'. Nonetheless, if Dave Smith tells Jack Bloggs in a pub in the UK that the holocaust never happened, then that isn't an offence in Germany - it's only if the German prosecutors can show that his message reached people in Germany.

3) however, 100% agreed that this should only apply when extraditing people from countries where holocaust denial is illegal. So you should be able to extradite someone to Germany from France (since they chose to live in a jurisdiction where that activity is legally restricted) but not from the UK.

4) yes, of course making consensual adult incest illegal is a stupid idea and the French have the right attitude here. This has bollocks-all to do with the EU; nearly everywhere apart from France criminalises it.

5) as 4, but also for 'extreme' pornography.

John B said...

@ say what? - no, again you're missing the point. This doesn't mean that there'll be a new offence in English, Scottish & NI law of 'insult or resistance to a person in public authority' - just that certain crimes (like the existing English offence of 'resisting arrest') will be administratively grouped under this heading.

Dr Evil said...

Has the MSM said a dickie bird? I haven't seen anything. It needs erm flagging up. The people of this country are just in the dark re the EU and its stultifying laws.

Anonymous said...

hmmm - i think we are at cross-purposes. i agree with your point 1 (and 4 and 5 of course) but in point 3 you say we should extradite people from places where holocaust denial is illegal, but not where it is legal.
there is a problem here, in that the Germans have decided who says what. how the law is enacted with regards to extradition is beside the point. it makes no sense to criminalise someone for contradicting historical facts. i could say that Cromwell was a kindly gent who brought presents to the grateful townsfolk of Drogheda - what are the Irish meant to do, extradite me and imprison me for the crime of talking bollocks?
no, unless someone publishes an explicit and direct incitement to violence let them get on with it. there is enough evidence re: the holocaust to make ridiculous any claims to the contrary. using the law for censorship of ideas, even obnoxious or offensive ones, is wrong. the Germans are wrong. suppression of free speech is wrong.

John B said...

On 3 - what I mean is, even if there is clear evidence that I went to Munich and denied the holocaust at the annual meeting of the Beer Hall Putsch Re-Enactment Society (incorporating the A. Hitler Fan Club), if I manage to return to the UK before the German police catch up with me, then I should not be extradited from the UK to Germany. Whereas if I flee to France instead, where denying the holocaust is also illegal, then extraditing me to Germany to face charges is fair enough.

I agree that denying the holocaust should be legal in all three countries, just as talking nonsense about Cromwell should be and is legal in Ireland. But that's a separate point.

Anonymous said...

Old Raedwald(just a boat)is a most informed and informative blogger.

If Old Holborn or The Devil could teach him invective and expletive the old sloop would be unstoppable.

Anonymous said...

Well fuck me - I didn't know incest between consenting adults is legal in France.

And there was me thinking Papa and Nicole were playing a very risky game.

AntiCitizenOne said...

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

John B said...

"And there was me thinking Papa and Nicole were playing a very risky game."


Old Holborn said...

DK, you are going to LOVE this

NHS to ban meat in hospitals to stop global warming


Katabasis said...

"DK, you are going to LOVE this

NHS to ban meat in hospitals to stop global warming"


Am I imagining this, or are all these incredibly aggravating events happening at a much faster clip now than a few years ago?

Anonymous said...

I'm off to wipe my arse on an EU flag.

Longrider said...

NHS to ban meat in hospitals to stop global warming

Kerry McCarthy has it wrong; they are not banning meat, merely offering meat-free options - although, yes, the great god carbon footprint is involved...

I've written a piece on this one for when the server is back up.

Anonymous said...

Sir Henry - your observations contain a sort of haunting beauty.

I just hope my trousers will have fully dried by the morning.

Idle Pen Pusher said...

Time to leave...

Old Holborn said...

Hello hello

Beeb has just shown a bent Lord helping Experion, a credit agency, with the ID card legislation

Credit? Id Cards?


Devil. FETCH.

What the FUCK is a credit company doing with ID cards?

John B said...

Err, they *know how to create and maintain enormous fucking databases of people's personal information*, perhaps?

Anonymous said...

Whereas if I flee to France instead, where denying the holocaust is also illegal, then extraditing me to Germany to face charges is fair enough.

no, it isn't, you are suffering violence from the state for professing a political opinion. this is against the ECHR for a start. plus it doesn't make sense for the Krauts to be as bad as they used to be towards someone who says they weren't as bad as they really were (eh?)

Anonymous said...

And how long before these laws are 'harmonised'?

And what form would that 'harmonisation' take?

It's not the European Intersection ...

Thortung The Terrible said...

Your name vill go on ze list!

Anonymous said...

The problem wont be that you are carted off to a concentration camp , it will be a minor inconvenience at first, so that you accept the whole picture.

For example, you are coming home through France and a Gendarme stops your vehicle. After a good walk round, he tells you you can be on your way after you`ve scrubbed off that flag you put over the EU one on your number plate, and paid a small fine.
Do you argue or get on your way ?

John B said...


(this is a very dull 1980s text based adventure game, right?)

Anonymous said...

they've thought about the possibility of the populace arguing with Plod here, because the Plod now have Tasers. these weapons are deadly, over 350 in USA killed by Tasers in the last 7 years (amnsety international). however, they are just inefficient enough as killing machines to be passed off as "humane" - if it's happening to someone else. they represent a terrible potential for evil if misused by bad officers or in following oppressive policy. if a suspect dies, it's classed as an accident; they are a legal way to kill people. officers need protection from thugs and villains, but a Taser is a sadistic cop's dream, far moreso than a baton or firearm, because it's use is easier to explain away.
Tasers might be the thin end of the wedge. there's an american company trying to sell electric shock bracelets to airlines. all passengers get one as they board. so if anyone goes berserk or threatens flight safety, the bad passenger can be "zapped" by the crew.
combine this with electronic tagging, CCTV etc and you have a method of control for "bad people" which is, according to ECRIS, everyone. how long before they are required for football hooligans or scrotes as an all-day requirement? or for political protest rallies?
NB to ARGUE WITH GENDARME might or might not get your face on the toe of his boot, but definitely a huge fine. the officer will kindly drive you to a cash machine.

Anonymous said...


I'm sorry, I didn't understand the word "WITH".

Roger Thornhill said...

OH: What the FUCK is a credit company doing with ID cards?

Simple - ID cards makes it easier for them to know who they are lending to. They *THINK* it will mean they do not have loan after loan made to some fake person laminated up in some flat in Whitechapel.

Anonymous said...

Hurrah, I've looked through the list and I qualify on ten different counts. Do I get a badge or a certificate or something?

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