Monday, January 05, 2009

Blog ethics

Whilst I have agreed to disagree with Old Holborn over the Israel and Palestine situation, there is another point of ethics to consider.

You see, I'm kind of old-fashioned and I do tend to think that if you post a graphic video that purports to show Israelis blowing Palestinian civilians to shit and it is actually a film of Hamas' own rockets exploding during one of their rallies, then you should probably admit that you made a mistake.

Apart from anything else, not to do so damages one's credibility—which is, after all, what a blogger's reputation hangs on...

Yes, I do try to admit my errors of fact. "Errors" of opinion?—no. Those are my opinions and you can like 'em or lump 'em. Although I do listen to counter-arguments too: otherwise, what would be the point of soliciting feedback...?


Shug Niggurath said...

Well said mr Deil! Differences of opinion are what makes us free.

wv I shit you not: creme

Anonymous said...

This is the second or third time Old Holdburn has twisted the Libetarian line to agree with his beliefs.

He is a liability who will do more damage through his egotistic need for eyeballs over the coming months!

Having taken a few days to look over the evidence, I am with the Jews on this one. Hamas needs to stop their rocket attacks

Anonymous said...

Is it true OH left the party over this little fight? Seems to me to be an overreaction...

Old Holborn said...

"He is a liability who will do more damage through his egotistic need for eyeballs over the coming months!"

A liability to whom? The LPUK? I am no longer a member. I am beholden to ME. Not supporters of that rogue racist state Israel.

I can understand why DK is concerned. Wikio now shows me as the 16th most influencial political blog in the UK. whilst he continues to slip in the ratings.

You continue to attack me DK, invite others to attack me, dedicate several posts to mock me, and do I give a shit?

Nah. That's why I'm a Libertarian. I don't give a shit if only I read my blog. Just as I don't give a shit if I'm the only person who walks to Parliament on November 5th dressed as Guy Fawkes.

I don't earn a penny from my blog, carry no advertising and simply speak my mind. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Should I simply ignore the Email you sent me earlier today? Has the demon drink got the better of you? Again?

Read my strapline again. Run along now, Prince Charles needs a blow job.

Bemused Wolf said...

Again, I feel I have to interject, and state that none of this was EVER about the LPUK.

DK does NOT speak for the LPUK in THIS matter, at THIS time.

Nor does OH EVER speak FOR the LPUK at ANY time!

Until such a time that the LPUK releases an agreed policy or statement on this whole Palestine/Israel affair, (If ever they feel it is neccessary.) NOBODY speaks for them.

Taking sides here is ridiculous. This is about two free-thinking, LIBERTARIAN minded people, who do not agree on a matter that is so complicated that there is probably no longer a 'right' and 'wrong' side.

As for the video, well, the truth is right there in the comments, which will never be moderated by OH I don't think.

Misinformation? Perhaps.

Intentional in the first? I honestly doubt it.

It is a shame that OH has decided to leave the LPUK, however, I do not think that this is the sole reason.
I'm sure that whatever he has planned for this New Year, to become the biggest pain in the arse to all of the 646 may well be better off without any connection with the LPUK.

Me? I'll be there on the 5th, still a member of the LPUK, and still supporting OH in any way that I can, because, honestly, whether you agree with him on THIS issue or not, this country needs someone like him to make the righteous, and the 646 take notice.

Old Holborn said...

"It is a shame that OH has decided to leave the LPUK, however, I do not think that this is the sole reason.2

Nope it is. Really. I'm a do-er. The last thing I need is an NCC member with a knife between my shoulder blades because he doesn't agree with me. Bollocks to that. His post here proves he has an axe to grind, though God knows what it is.

I can be just as much a pain to the 646, upset just as many people and create as much mischief in 2009 as I want without that. Hence my resignation. Now, I'm doing it for me, not for anyone else.

Anonymous said...

Can someone explain how the fuck LPUK, a non interventionist party, got dragged into a bitch fight between two individuals over a country thousands of miles away?


Old Holborn said...


You should have said you were Jewish.

Now I understand

The Refuser said...

I was disappointed that the post was allowed to stand. I enjoy Old Holborn's rants by and large and he is entertaining.
However posting a Pallywood video does tend to undermine the the argument and ultimately the credibilty of the blog.

Anonymous said...

I'll keep on reading OH; I can deeply disagree with someone on an issue like Israel while totally agreeing with them on others, and while still respecting their er...'forthrightness' probably isn't the right word; it'd be like describing a doberman as "sorta like a poodle, only bigger".

OH could have easily posted an update though, clearly saying that the video was probably suspect, but that he stands by his position on Israel. That would have been more honest and open.

Most of things he blogs about aren't controversial and open to argument (to anyone with a brain and who isn't a sheeple, anyway - it's undeniable that Gordon Brown is a cunt, for example) - and he's damn funny when he gets into one of his rants, which is one of the reasons why I started reading DK, for example, a couple or so years ago.

When it does get to a heated debate though, he can seem totally unable to see the other side of the argument. I can. I might sympathise with Israel (and I didn't always - I do now because I was willing to change my opinion), but that doesn't mean for one minute that I'm now an unconditional supporter - I deplored the use of cluster bombs in the last days of their war with Hezbollah, for example.

I'm not Jewish or even a Christian Zionist, and so don't have a dog in this race. I do, however, believe that Israel is far more humane than the islamofascists of Hamas and that the MSM is always against them no matter what.

Where were the BBC when thousands of rockets were raining on Israeli towns in the past - for how many years - and schoolchildren had to take cover in bomb shelters? Nowhere, and that should be no fucking surprise. It's only ever when the eeeevil Jooooos(!!!!) dare to protect themselves that the media ever turn up.

OH IS entertaining and I'll keep on reading his rants, but I won't bother debating him in the comments section. I'll just have to accept that he's someone who I like and who will agree with 90% of the time, but on the other 10% we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I know that OH is angry at nearly everyone; what I can't work out is why he's angrier at Israel than at people like Hamas, though. And more to the point, why he's so uncompromising that he's willing to leave that video up without updating his post.

Devil's Kitchen said...

Sorry, on the move so briefly...

1) I am not at all Jewish, OH; not in any way.

2) This should never have been about LPUK; I have consistently maintained that my opinions at The Kitchen are entirely personal and not LPUK policy -- that is why LPUK have a policy TEAM.

3) It is a pity that OH seems to have decided to take this personally, but I can't help that. For him to accuse me of having "a knife in his back" because I disagree with himon this one issue is, frankly, incredibly childish.

4) This post is not about Israel or Palestine: it is about maintaining the credibility of blogging by admitting when you have made a mistake.

If, for instance, this video does, in fact, show want OH says it does, then I shall make a correction on the post and apologise. This is a policy known as "honesty".

Devil's Kitchen said...

6) I'm very happy that you are moving up the Wikio rankings, OH. May it bring you much happiness.

Personally, I have always blogged for myself; that people like what I write has always been a source of barely concealed joy, but it was never the main object.

7) BUT I maintain my credibilty, on all sides of the blogging spectrum, because I admit that I am sometimes wrong, that I don't have all that answers. And I publically acknowledge when I am in serious factual error.


Devil's Kitchen said...

5) This policy of "honesty" is the one that we'd like our politicians to adopt. We bloggers are supposed to be better than them, not rushing to adopt their tactics.

Devil's Kitchen said...

Hmmm, bit of a weird order of posting there. Never mind, I think that the gist is clear enough...


Anonymous said...

Leaving aside personal squablings between some very good bloggers I must say that the video is slightly irrelevant really. It's not the first time that film has been used in order to persuade People to take sides in war.
I think you need only watch some Foxnews archives to see that and in most cases they took the pro-Israeli line.
The ironic thing Foxnews, who used to run pieces attacking the Man-made global warming camp now has a "green" website.
No doubt under Obama We might see a slight change in their editorial line. The reason for that is simple really in my mind.
Big business wanting to enveigle themselves with Saint Obama will have no choice but to appear to follow his political beliefs in order to join the queue for handouts, bailouts and all sorts of other benefits therefore adopting a more environmentally friendly face and who knows even be more critical of Israel. These Companies advertise on Foxnews and will not want to be seen associated with such a starkly right wing channel. In which case Foxnews will have no choice but to buckle under in order to maintain the income from these companies.
In the past Foxnews were rightfully castigated for their coverage of war in Iraq and their stance on the problems in the middle east. Watch them change.
So, back to the point, ask yourselves how much film footage and reportage has been pulled from broadcast which shows the US and GB and Israel in a light which was not deemed to be politically expedient at the time.
It's nothing new, it's just the same ol same ol.

Hacked Off said...

I shall keep reading and enjoying both your blogs, and making the occasional comment. The great difference between the "socialist/fascist" end of the political and intellectual spectrum and the other end, where I like to think of myself as floating, is that no one opinion or viewpoint has to prevail and be signed up to. We can revel in our differences, long may it continue.

The Penguin

Boy on a bike said...

I thought these "home made" rockets were supposed to be harmless. More like a big sparkly fire cracker than an offensive weapon.

Oh well.....

The Nameless Libertarian said...

Personally, I think it is a shame that OH can't admit that he made a mistake over the video. It doesn't mean his stance on Israel is invalidated. Just as mindless slagging off of anyone who doesn't absolutely agree with him doesn't make his position on Israel right.

However, to leave LPUK over a foreign policy squabble is pretty petty and pretty childish. Good luck to OH, and I'm sure his blog will continue to do well - as there is always a place for people who see the world in grossly simplistic terms of right or wrong.


Old BE said...

I stopped respecting OH when he sent threats to his political opponents. Not the way I like to see things done. I also take issue with his use of DK's "real" name. The blog is written under the name DK, so use the name DK. I have no issue with people who support the Hamas version of events, but why muck around with fake footage if that's what it is? Using fake evidence to further your cause is on a par with the "dodgy dossier" is it not?

Katabasis said...

DK, why are you reporting on this story, but not covering Craig's recent call to arms. I know you're sympathetic - I've seen your support for him before on here.

Devil's Kitchen said...


Simple pressures of time at this point, I'm afraid. I'll have a look when I get back...


Anonymous said...

I'm happy OH is no longer a member of LPUK. For that reason, let him rant in any way he wants.

He is wrong to be going down the sensationalist route. Even more so because he rants when others do the same thing.

The nice thing about the internet is that no one is forced to read any page they do not agree with -

I doubt I will be reading any more of OH rants - its like reading the Daily Star without the tits!

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Anonymous said...

Old Holborn said...

You should have said you were Jewish.

Now I understand

An untruth, an ad hominem attack, a breach of netiquette and more than a hint of anti-semitism all in one brief comment.

Not too clever, OH.

Jon said...

DK, as a recent convert to your blog, may I say how much I appreciate your reasonableness? OH's rants are occasionally funny, simply because they are so much over the top, but just lately a vein of nastiness and megalomania has become apparent in his work.

The nice thing about right-wing blogs is the humour and irreverence; the nasty thing is some of the Jew-baiters and tinfoil-hat-wearers they inevitably attract.

Anonymous said...

Nuance, Fairness and Balance are not words associated with OH's blog. He's never claimed to like Muslims, evidently he likes Israelis (maybe Jews?) even less.

Who cares? He's offensively entertaining and makes no secret about his beliefs or prejudices.

To go from his blog to Kerry McCarthy's is like the transition from Caldarium to Frigidarium.

BTW Did you see the Palestinian protester in NY holding a up a placard saying:

"Death to All Juice"

Fed up with his five-a-day, evidently.

Anonymous said...

I'm not Jewish or even a Christian Zionist, and so don't have a dog in this race. I do, however, believe that Israel is far more humane than the islamofascists of Hamas and that the MSM is always against them no matter what.

Best one yet in terms of kneejerk reaction considering his poodle is not in the race.

BenefitScroungingScum said...

I don't read OH and certainly don't feel I know enough to comment on the Israel/Palestine situation but the wider point of opinions and facts is an interesting one.
Funnily enough I see DK as one of the most open minded bloggers as he is comfortable admitting when he's wrong and listening to other people's opinions. The language may prejudice many (he's called me a stupid fucktard in the past) but underneath that it's clear DK believes factual accuracy is important which is more than many bloggers do.
Bendy Girl

Thud said...

I enjoy OH's rants but the refusal to admit vid mistake just marks him out as a coward...something which surprises me as he always comes across as a rather strong individual...words as we know are cheap it seems.

Anonymous said...

"Fake but True", pretty standard stuff these days. People see what they want to see, and no force on earth will get them to see the truth.

Old Holborn said...

It's OK everyone,

In revenge for me not supporting Israel, Obo published my real name, address, phone number and photo on the LPUK blog and my blog to "punish" me for not towing the line.

That's me made an example of then. I wonder who from the LPUK is next for the "outage"?

Devil's Kitchen said...


"In revenge for me not supporting Israel, Obo published my real name, address, phone number and photo on the LPUK blog and my blog to "punish" me for not towing the line."

If it was there, it is not now.

Lest there is any doubt, I do not condone this action in any way: what is done in the blogosphere under pseudonyms should stay in the blogosphere under pseudonyms.

The LPUK blog should certainly not be used for settling personal scores.


Old Holborn said...

It's OK DK, I intend to keep all the death threats, lumps of rock hurled through my windows and any spilled blood now that everyone knows where I live, what schools my kids go to and what I look like.

There's me thinking it was only the BNP that did stuff like this to it's members eh?

First threat is already in by email. Cheers Obo.

Dr Evil said...

Oh dear. The Israelis have but vids on Youtube showing their attacks and no doubt the Gazans will do the same.

Roger Thornhill said...

OH, this is not an action of the LPUK. Period. The fact it appeared on the unofficial LPUK blog does not mean anything at all in relation to LPUK modus operandi.

If you point the finger at the LPUK, that would be a form of collective punishment.

Elby the Beserk said...

Wildly off topic ...

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to resign due to gross financial incompetence in running the British economy.

Submitted by Alex Wallace – Deadline to sign up by: 15 January 2009 – Signatures: 592

Catosays said...

I read, enjoy and occasionally comment on both of your blogs.

I should say here that I completely disagree with OH regarding the Gaza situation but he is as entitled to his views as me.

However, if the video posted by OH was false, fake, call it what you will, then he should stand up and admit his error. It's not a big deal OH, you just stand up and say,..."Oooops, I made a mistake".

Old Holborn said...

I couldn't agree more Roger

I have resigned because my views regarding Israel are not compatible with many of the members of the party. It makes sense for me to carry on doing my thing on my own.

What I didn't expect was the violent reaction by a couple of senior members to my resignation, the result of which has very serious implications to my private life.

Again, nothing to do with the LPUK but rather worrying about the attitudes of some of the membership.

On the plus side, the chairman of the LPUK removed my personal details from the LPUK blog very quickly after Obo posted them there. For that, I am grateful.

Old Holborn said...

Cato, I will replace it with footage of 30 dead school children being pulled from the UN school as soon as I receive it.

Unfortunately, the Israelis won't allow any journalists into Gaza (can't think why) but I'm sure something will surface on Youtube in the next few hours.

Is that fair?

Daily Referendum said...

No10 Petition - Gordon Brown to resign for economic incompetence.

MrAngryman said...

OH , dont agree with your stance on Israel but your a bloody good blogger, hopefully you guys can let this slide and go back to posting brilliant yet shocking posts.

Anonymous said...

What's the LPUK got to do with any of this? Let's face it, if it were not for the free publicity on DK's blog nobody would ever have heard of them anyway.

Ian B said...

Just to say, this whole thing is fucking pathetic, and sadly indicative of the whole problem of small "outsider" political movements, who have a tendency to start flinging poo at each other over perceived ideological differences. Then they split, form their own groups "welcome to the Real Libertarian Party", "welcome to the Official Libertarian Party" etc, and spend more time fighting each other than whatever common enemy they started off fighting.

"The Judean Popular Front?"

"That's him over there."

As to the LPUK blog, I think the LPUK needs to look at the fact that putting "unofficial" on a blog with "LPUK" written on the masthead, written by the LPUK's leaders or significant members or whatever, looks like an official blog regardless, so it needs to have some standards and trot out the official party line and nothing else. If LPUK can avoid schismatic destruction and become a significant political force, opponents will be all over everything ever said and done in its name by anyone associated with it. If somebody really descended to publishing OH's name and address on it, they need a damned good kick up the arse. I'm an LPUK member, for what it's worth.

Catosays said...

Old Holborn said...

Cato, I will replace it with footage of 30 dead school children being pulled from the UN school as soon as I receive it.

Unfortunately, the Israelis won't allow any journalists into Gaza (can't think why) but I'm sure something will surface on Youtube in the next few hours.

Is that fair?

1/06/2009 05:27:00 PM

That is entirely fair. No complaints here.

Ian B said...

"I will replace it with footage of 30 dead school children"

From the article-

"A number of children were among those who died"

so, not 30 dead children then. 30 dead people, some of whom are children.

"Israel said its soldiers had come under fire from militants inside the school."

so, if the Israeli report is correct, Hamas fighters were deliberately using a school, a school with children in it, for military purposes. Was this wise?

Not taking sides here, but I just wonder who in this discussion, if they were fighting a revolutionary struggle, would think it acceptable to endanger children in this manner. Doesn't the thought process of a reasonable person go- "I am going to fire mortars at the forces of evil. The forces of evil will thus attack me in response. There are children in here. I should attack the forces of evil from somewhere else"?

Also, aren't these people "guerrillas" or "irregular fighters" or something? What's with "militants"?

Anonymous said...

Did anyone see the ITN news, where a female Israeli army major tore ITN's reporter a new arsehole? Absolutely beautiful to watch!

Unknown said...

fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking

Ooh look I can swear too.

Clever ain' it.

Thud said...

Replacing one vid with another does not make up for the fact that OH stood behind a lie does it?...another incident of questionable provenance does nothing to elicitfaith in anything posted from now on...but then OH will say he doesn't care...why let fakes get in the way of a crap rant.

Anonymous said...

Posting Old Holborn's details was a disgrace. And I'm glad to hear that he has left LPUK. We will be better off without him.

Trixy said...

"Unfortunately, the Israelis won't allow any journalists into Gaza (can't think why) but I'm sure something will surface on Youtube in the next few hours."

Because there would be a fucking outrage if they got hurt?

In much the same way as ISAF have rules regarding their CZs. Lots of forms to fill in.

Saying that, if any journo wanted to get into Gaza they could.

Anonymous said...

Just read through the comments, no intention to post however the word verification for the comment box was 'bulating'. It seemed to resonante and sumarise the whole DK, Obnoxio, OH spat.

If one doesn't care about what people think but has chosen to post their thoughts and view on the webumong why 'bulate' in the posts...

Israel, Hammas, OH, please put and an end to this tedious bulating.

haddock said...

by the time LPUK " becomes a significant political force" democracy will be a thing of the past. Idealism is fine, for idealists, the pragmatists are the people who get things done. To build a party of any worth will take years, not months, and there is an EU election coming up in June. LPUK will do nothing except take votes from UKIP.... who are about as Libertarian as it gets in UK politics. Not ideal, but the pragmatic choice to start clawing back some of our individuality and democracy.

As for killing children in Gaza, it is a statistical certainty of killing children if you lob anything explosive into Gaza. The proportion of under 14s in Gaza is 48.5%..... no figure for under 18s but guessing ? 65% ?. At least half to two thirds of the people there are 'children'. ( Arab chavs, living on benefits and breeding like flies in a shit heap.)
In UK, one in 6 of the population is under 14.....
so you are 3 times more likely to kill a kid by bombing Gaza than UK

The kids that ' blow up early' in that region seem to pick crowded areas where there are kids and women to self detonate.

Anonymous said...

No problem.

The gobby shite has thrown in the towel anyway

What a wanker.

Van Helsing said...

I have been watching the blogs and comment since this situation began, I have not commented on it because it will not change anything. I do not feel like tilting at windmills.
Looking at the comment, I cannot change anyones minds, every one seems to approach this this subject with their own preconceived views.
What does make me comment is this seems to have drawn everyones attention away from things we can affect, even if only in a small way, to that extent the forces of darkness have won a battle. They must be overjoyed if OH is going to stop blogging. they might even consider they have won the war.
So was that the result everyone here wanted.

Anonymous said...

I have long thought that Holborn was simply a gob on a stick and it's nice to see it confirmed.

One minute he's saying " Let's raise a peoples army and sieze control of the state, I'm going to buy myself a shotgun so I can waste burglars and state apparatchiks " then the next minute it's all " You told people who I am and where I live, it's not fair, I might get a nasty email "
That doesn't sound to me like he's quite the fearless enemy of the state he claims to be.

If you want the LPUK to be taken seriously by the general public ( I won't take the LPUK seriously while I have a hole in my arse, but I'm offering the advice in good faith ) then distance yourself from pathetic egotistical mouthpieces like him.

Roger Thornhill said...

It amazes me how the BBC parrots the term "palestinians killed" when one needs to separate civilians from militia. I think to do so gives transparency and does not allow certain people to dismiss the number because 'it could all be militia'. Duh.

Speaking for myself,

I would not put my command bunker under a hospital.

I would not base rocket launchers, artillery, radar jammers, tanks, self-propelled guns etc. in a school playground.

I would not position fighters in places of worship or other totemic sites that would draw fire to the building.

...even if fighting an insurgency or resisting occupation. I would also attack only military targets or facilities of the invading State/organisation. Leave the atrocities to the other side. Let them lose hearts and minds.

James Higham said...

This question of blog ethics is what drives Bloghounds, which group people do not understand.

Basically, it is an attempt to admit only ethical bloggers. This does not mean goody two shoes at all. For example, you'd be a prime candidate, not that you're interested.

You follow an ethical standard whatever your vocabulary and however hard you attack. That's why people keep coming back to you.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe that I've just read this entire thread without anyone making reference to the Nazis! This is an absolute affront to Godwin's Law, and I would therefore like to correct this state of affairs immediately: it was common practice for the Nazis to justify their attacks on civilian targets by claiming they were being used by resistance fighters/terrorists. Just one more trick that the Israelis have learned from their former oppressors.

I support OH's stance on this one. But, as I'm a certified Conspiraloon, he may not want my support. Probably doesn't give a shit.

@'Anonymous': you're a coward.

Anonymous said...

Antipholus Papps: "it was common practice for the Nazis to justify their attacks on civilian targets by claiming they were being used by resistance fighters/terrorists"

Logic error.

It was common practice for Nazis to have two legs, therefore anyone with two legs is a Nazi.

Dave Snark said...


Don't confuse AP with logic. It hurts his brain.

Devil's Kitchen said...

I suspect that AP wasn't being entirely serious...


Anonymous said...

It was common practice for Nazis to have two legs

It wasn't just common practice, it was a requirement for membership! If you only had one leg you'd be used to establish a precedent for euthanasia.

Logic is for losers. After five years in the blogosphere, I have discovered that the best way to win any argument is to be volatile and inconsistent. Erect straw men, launch ad hominem attacks, and draw totally irrelevant analogies, preferrably involving Hitler.


Philip I said...

The world should listen to this wise Israeli.

Anonymous said...

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NHS Fail Wail

I think that we can all agree that the UK's response to coronavirus has been somewhat lacking. In fact, many people asserted that our de...