Tuesday, August 05, 2008

Minimum decency

City Unslicker reports that the government is putting pressure on the Low Pay Commission to raise the National Minimum Wage from £5.52 to £5.73. CU rightly points out that this is a disgusting fudge for the following reasons.
  1. The increase returns people to where they were before they lost out. Hardly a pay rise!

  2. It is also a pay rise for everyone whether they were winners or losers under the 10p tax disaster and u-turns. Over compensating again.

  3. Employers have to find the money, not Gordon and the Treasury, so a big boost for government coffers.

  4. As employers and employess pay national insurance contributions of 23.8% (11% paid by the employee and 12.8% by the employer) and employees pay income tax, raising the minimum wage actually raises tax receipts slightly.

  5. Insisting employers pay more for staff, during a recession/downturn is poor strategy. Jobs will be cut, they can't not be.

Of course, with all of this economics stuff, CU forgets a rather crucial human element to this.

People rent out their labour to an employer. Some people's labour is worth less than other people's. Some people's labour is worth almost nothing. At present, we have truly horrific figures of unemployment amongst the young and the unskilled: those very people whose labour is worth the least.

So what Gordon is proposing to do is to ensure that anyone whose labour is worth less than £5.73 per hour will never, ever, ever get a fucking job.

Way to help the poor and the disadvantaged, you fucktarded monocular cunt...


Obnoxio The Clown said...

It never fails to amaze that some dunderhead lefty cock will trumpet this (cocktrumpet this?) as some kind of achievement!

"Look what we've done! We've precluded the very poorest in society from ever getting out of the gutter! Aren't we clever?"


Dave said...

You realise that the minimum wage is also the maximum wage in many sectors. Try running a home on £5.52 an hour.

Chris Gilmour said...

You seem to be forgetting the choice that employers in deciding whether to employ someone legally or illegally, and when the minimum wage increases or it becomes more difficult to follow the rules, the illegal option looks more and more attractive.

Which then gives the authorities a choice of their own, to turn a blind eye or not.

Trixy said...

I don't think the government, or the opposition alas, let economics trouble them when they come up with these policies.

Anonymous said...

Try running a home on £5.52 an hour. (Dave).

Then try paying a £110 fine for putting your bins out the night before.

anthonynorth said...

Whenever Labour do something to help the poor, the poor should moan. It never works.

Old Holborn said...

Fuck that. If your labour is worth less than £5.70 an hour you are a cunt who needs to go back to school, get a fucking education and get some training.

I'm sick of hearing that people "can't" earn money. If you pay people to sit on their fat fucking arses all day, guess what 4.5 million have ended up doing? And guess who's paying them?

Shitmonkeys, the lot of them. Bring back the workhouse.

Anonymous said...

And of course the Unions, the main backers of Labour and deciders of policy, will demand higher wages to maintain wage differentials. Coincidence? Hmm. Unions care only about their members, they couldn't give a f*ck about the unemployed and young. Who wants inexperienced and cheap labour undercutting their members' interests?

Anonymous said...

Anyone earning the minimum wage per hour for a normal working week will find that over the year their pay will exceed their personal allowance of £6,035 and they will be taxed at 20% on the excess with National Insurance Contributions of 11% on pay in excess of £105, of course once your earnings exceed £770 per week you only pay 1% NIC. We have had the best Chancellor for the last ten years!

Patrick said...

..."Way to help the poor and the disadvantaged, you fucktarded monocular cunt"...

I couldnt agree more Mr DK.. Mind you in their ever increasing influence over the poor, it would appear that the govt would indeed prefer to employ the unemployed themselves, as pointed out by this article...


The govt fears a world where the poor are no more dependent on them, as a means to yet more power and greater influence...

Fiona said...

"Fuck that. If your labour is worth less than £5.70 an hour you are a cunt who needs to go back to school, get a fucking education and get some training."

Well, fuck you, Old Holborn.
I have a Masters degree but due to unforseen circumstances, I am now working part-time in a minimum wage job just so I can pay some bills and keep food on the table.

Not all minimum wage workers are cunts who have no education. Get a fucking grip.

Fiona said...

Oh, and everyone I work with has at LEAST an undergraduate degree.

Perhaps next time you sit sipping your latte... pay for your petrol...eat in a restaurant or visit a tourist attraction you might be a little more inclined to speak to the workers there with some respect. Most of them are probably a damn sight more intelligent than you'll ever be.

Anonymous said...

Just worked out that earning £5.70 p/h over the working week for a 50 week year is £10 687.50

So deducting the tax allowance of £6 035, that leaves £4 652.50 to be taxed @ 20%. Tax is £930.50 leaving a net of £9757.5. Assuming that NIC is levied at 11% on taxable income (not gross), that equates to £511.78 reducing the net income to £9245.72 or £184.91 per week.

Contrast that if you will with the minimum wage at £5.52, the weekly take home pay is £180.25

A whole £4.66 per week better off with the increase in minimum wage rate - must make those labour twats well and truly proud. Don't spend it all at once.

Anonymous said...

Degrees in what? Surfing and media studies?

Old Holborn said...

Fi Darling, may I ask what degree I paid for you to study? The one that you have spent years of your life doing, whilst others pay the bills and the taxes?

10/1 Essex Clay Pots during the Neo Georgian period

7/2 Dance/Drama

2/1 Media Studies

I notice that your poverty allows you a computer and time for internet access along with a bowl of rice a day no doubt.

"Due to unforeseen circumstances". Where I come from that is called bad planning just like fat people are still called obese.

You are not a Libertarian, ergo your poverty, your failure to plan a career and your hatred of anyone who does is (wait for it) "someone else's fault".

You are not uneducated, you are just stupid.

Anonymous said...

No doubt Old Holborn would like to see all those 'scroungers' or poor who take his hard earned cash starve to death or interned into work camps. It doesn’t matter that there are diverse reasons why people may need support to live, all those people are just a 'they', a bunch that need sorting out forthwith, so that he need not pay anything more towards their miserable existence. Cunt.

Fiona said...

"... bad planning just like fat people are still called obese...."

Yes, because death and illness and all that life throws at you is something that can always be forseen isn't it? Welcome to the real world. Life doesn't always work out the way you'd like it to, or the way you'd planned.

Did I blame you or anyone else for the situation I find myself in? No. Did I say I did not plan a career or that I hate anyone who does? No. Did I say I had no career, or have had no career in the past? No. Did I say I have no plans for a career at present? No.

The fact that I have a computer and slightly more than a bowl of rice is because I am not on the poverty line and never claimed that I was. The little extra money I earn helps me, I pay my way, pay my taxes (always have) and paid for my own education, which, by the way was mostly obtained overseas, not in the UK. You haven't paid a penny towards my education, my upkeep or anything else.

My original point was to refute this idiotic claim of yours: "Fuck that. If your labour is worth less than £5.70 an hour you are a cunt who needs to go back to school, get a fucking education and get some training."

I am not a cunt, I do have an education and have had plenty of training. You, my dear Holborn, are the cunt and are both uneducated and stupid.

So in your perfect internet Libertarian world (the one where YOU decide who is a libertarian or not) people are not entitled to make mistakes, feel emotions or actually live like a human being? No, in your ideal world we'd all be anthromorphic serfs slavishly following the Libertarian path....hmmm, sound familiar?

Open your cataract scarred eyes to reality - perhaps instead of blogging and bitching, you can actually go out and get a life?

My degrees are in Journalism, English, and Fine Art. I'm also halfway through an MA in International Relations. Sorry to disappoint, I know you'd have loved them to have been in your list.

Me said...

Most of the divers reasons for people needing support to live come down to two things, laziness and a desire on the part of the Labour government to create a body of loyal voters who would see it as mad to bite the hand that feeds it.

If a man can work he fucking well should and if he doesn't his death by starvation is his own fault.

Me said...

How the fuck do you slavishly follow a libertarian path?

Fiona said...

Evil Clanger
You don't....you obviously miss the point completely.

Anonymous said...

Fi, you are David Miliband and I claim etc...

Anonymous said...

Old Holborn / Evil Clanger, thanks so much for paying for my existence, the food on my plate, the roof over my head as paid for by the tax payer. Being one of those you pay for to sit around on my arse all day, one that should not be allowed to have anything or any pleasure in life if it is paid for by the tax and more importantly out of your pocket. Funny as it may seem some/many scroungers are actually not well enough to work, in my case because of depression, agoraphobia and to top it off sciatica, which developed whilst working for a living. Maybe you would like to pay for some gas to get rid of the irritating problem once and for all?

Anonymous said...

Anon 3:53

"Ooh I'm too poorly to go to work"

How about pulling yourself towards yourself, getting off your behind and getting a job. That's what self-respecting people do.

As for the sciatica - try a chiropracter or acupuncturist.

Failing that, where can we send the gas money to?

Anonymous said...

"...in my case because of depression..."

You suffer from depression, yet you read political blogs?

Self inflicted illness, I think... ;)

Anonymous said...

@fi: My degrees are in Journalism, English, and Fine Art. I'm also halfway through an MA in International Relations. Sorry to disappoint, I know you'd have loved them to have been in your list.

Three degrees?

Old Holborn said...

Fi, if you can't earn more than £5.70 an hour with a fucking degree in journalism, English and Fine Art then you truly are a fetid cunt. Aldi pay £8.20 an hour to stack fucking shelves. Stick in 50 hours a week and that's equal to £21K a year including holidays.

Get off your arse, get out of Cornwall and get a proper job that can keep you in a style to which you want to become accustomed.

Your life, your responsibility.

Anonymous said...

"Failing that, where can we send the gas money to?"

Is this what is meant by 'libertarian' to some of you? If you’re not healthy enough then you should be got rid of. Yes killed. Nazi fucking cunts.

Anonymous said...

"You suffer from depression, yet you read political blogs?

Self inflicted illness, I think... ;)"

Well naturally I shouldn't do anything other than stare at the wall all day long, everything else just shows me in a bad light. ;)

Anonymous said...

Anon 03:53, you can clearly type. How then can you be too poorly to work? If you can’t make it out of the house then find a job you can do at home (working over the internet for example). Don’t bask in your own sorrow.

Secondly no one owes you pleasure in life. In fact, no one owes you anything. That’s not to say no one should help you or others worse off. But don't think anybody owes it to you.

chris said...

So what Gordon is proposing to do is to ensure that anyone whose labour is worth less than £5.73 per hour will never, ever, ever get a fucking job

Yes, that's the point of doing it.

Old BE said...

I have no objection to the taxpayer topping up low wages (did it used to be called income support?). That way employers can employ people without many skills at a very low wage, safe in the knowledge that they are not dying of poverty.

Anonymous said...

You are right Carl, my mistake no one owes me anything.

Patrick said...

Have a bunch of socialists joined us today?... Clearly concerned by the possible criticism of their freebies Im guessing...

Anonymous said...

No I’m not a socialist and I hope you are never in the position where you may need freebies to stay alive. Maybe it would be of some help in finding your humanity though.

Fiona said...

My life, my responsibility - yes, you are absolutely fucking correct. But where did you get the idea that I am not taking any responsibility? I'm not blaming anyone for anything and am not bemoaning my fate. I'm a firm believer in the fact that you create your own reality. If life sucks, it's your own fault, if it's good, it is equally your own doing.

As I said earlier, your idea that everyone on a minimum wage is a "... cunt who needs to go back to school, get a fucking education and get some training." - is completely wrong and ignorant.

Why do I need to move away from Cornwall? I choose to live here, I choose to work on a freelance basis from home and I choose the part-time minimum wage job for some extra cash and the chance to interact with other people a couple of days a week. Yes, perhaps I could get better money back in London, but I'd rather live here than move back there and if I am going to work for minimum wage, I'd far rather endure it in a beautiful part of the country.

Anyone who works from home as an artist or as a writer will tell you that loneliness can be a bitch. My friends all have jobs and do not understand what it is like to work alone - and I would rather not bore them with the details when seeing them. I find the job (that according to you, only cunts seem able to do) allows me time to indulge in meeting new people, talking to other people, debating with other people and laughing with other people.

But I suppose that's something you'd know nothing about.

"Fetid cunt"? Is that the best you can do? Come on, you've beeen reading DK long enough to be more imaginative than that...and you do like to do a poor imitation.

Fiona said...

Ian QT

Yes, three. But I am no spring chicken.

Anonymous said...

Looks like Socialist hero Sidney Webb got here first:

"Consider the debate over the minimum wage. The controversy centered on what to do about what Sidney Webb called the "unemployable class." It was Webb's belief, shared by many of the progressive economists affiliated with the American Economic Association, that establishing a minimum wage above the value of the unemployables' worth would lock them out of the market, accelerating their elimination as a class. This is essentially the modern conservative argument against the minimum wage, and even today, when conservatives make it, they are accused of — you guessed it — social Darwinism. But for the progressives at the dawn of the fascist movement, this was an argument for it. "Of all ways of dealing with these unfortunate parasites," Webb observed, "the most ruinous to the community is to allow them unrestrainedly to compete as wage earners."


Old Holborn said...

"Freebies to stay alive"

Name the date of the last person to die of starvation in the UK (child cruelty cases excluded).

It would appear that some here would prefer to have the State as "family" that you can go to when you are down on your luck, need a few bob or a quick pick me up.

The State is not your friend. NEVER rely on it.

We currently have 4.5 million who are fed, clothed and housed by the State. When it reaches 9 million, ZNL will have another "landslide" victory.

(plus of course the 7 million who actually work for the State and the 21 million who claim some sort of benefit from the State. Wise up or get used to calling Gordon "Massa")

Patrick said...


Regrettably the govt has made all the poor and sick beholden to them... And the govt likes it that way.. keeps these arseholes ruling us ALL by the point of a gun... because the sick and poor get their pay checks from them and are in no position to find finances from any other source... As a result we are tol, no choice guys we mut have a govt...

Bollocks to that sentiment

Old Holborn said...

Fi, you are a freelance journalist and skint.

I therefore deduce that you are in the wrong career, despite three very expensive attempts to get it right.

I visited your blog and it sums up your aspirations, dreams, achievements and views perfectly.

Funnily enough, I just spent two days with a German freelance journalist in her Chateaux in the Charente. She works 16-18 hours a day, aged 62, has an enormous social circle and more money than I will ever have.

Work harder, less trying to stick your thumb up DK's arse whilst juicing his prostrate.

Sorted. Oh, and tell the rest of the failures with degrees who are flipping burgers with you to do the same.

Fiona said...

I don't believe either the state or my family would pull me out of shit should I need them.

I rely on myself, I'm the only one I can trust.

Fiona said...

I don't have a blog so have no idea what you have been reading. Would be very interested to know the address of said blog though if it is kept by someone with the same name as myself.

The only thing I have on the web is my facebook page. Is that what you are muttering about?

I am not a freelance journalist. Jesus wept, try to keep up. I write copy when I need to and I paint, which is my main source of income.

Who the fuck said I was skint? Just because someone wants a little extra cash does not mean they are skint.

Are you really this pig-ignorant or do you just enjoy the attention? I think you must be feeling rather downhearted because it's been brought to your attention that the people you so readily dismiss as stupid cunts are not necessarily so. And where does that leave you in the pecking order?

PS : I don't flip burgers.

Old Holborn said...

"I visited your blog and it sums up your aspirations, dreams, achievements and views perfectly."

3 expensive degrees eh?

I think we all now know why you do crayoning for a living

Fiona said...

Yes, you already mentioned that. And once more... slowly.........which blog would this be?

And yes, three degrees, and one MA. What's the matter? Bitter you couldn't get an A level? Or are you still working towards that?

You probably know as much about art as you do about people working in minimum wage jobs, so your "crayoning" quip was not entirely unexpected. I paint in oils....that's oil paints...on canvas. For someone who "crayons" for a living, I don't do too badly, thank you.


Anonymous said...

The Monocular Mucophage walked into a bar with a big ugly toad on his head.

'What's that?' asked the barman.

'Do you know, it started off as a fucking wart on me arse!' replied the toad.


CityUnslicker said...

Look, ther is your arse MR Darling, there is your elbow...oh let's try again, there is your arse, there is your.....

ta for link Mr Devil.

Anonymous said...

Might I spoil this lovely private argument by mentioning that the NMW is already going up to £5.73 from October and that this was decided some time ago - before the 10p tax band lark.
Also I might mention the difficulties competing in manufacturing when the government sets the wages artificially high.

TheFatBigot said...

The classic socialist error in relation to the minimum wage is that it gives people dignity. Their assumption seems to be that getting the only job you can at a very low wage is somehow undignified so it has to be given dignity by the wage being increased to a level above the economic value of the job being done.

What gives people dignity more than anything else is supporting themselves and their dependents through honest work. Anything government does to reduce the number in employment reduces dignity.

It is overlooked that a lot of low-paid menial jobs existed as a social service. When Fred Figgis, a man of limited intellectual ability and no physical skills, got a job sweeping the floor of the local factory at £3 an hour over a 50 hour week and went home at the end of the week with a pay packet all his own he had dignity.

There's many a small factory which used to employ the Fred Figgis's of this world. The owners would find the money to employ a Fred because it was the right thing to do not because they needed someone sweeping the floor all day every day. Doing so gave Fred dignity and didn't hurt the company much.

It was really a non-job, but unlike £25k a year pavement artist counsellors employed by councils, it was a non-job that nonetheless served a useful purpose and did so in a balanced and humane way.

The Fred Figgis's can't get jobs now. £5.52 an hour, statutory holiday pay, paternity leave and all the other do-gooding bollocks makes them too expensive for the social service to be justifiable. All the more so because the 15 machinists he swept up after were on £4.50 an hour and now cost £40 a week more each (plus NI); that cost has to be borne, an extra £30k+ a year, because of the minimum wage. Not only does Fred have to go but a machinist or three has to go to keep costs to what they were before and the others have to work a lot harder than their extra £1 an hour reflects.

There are always consequences to these do-gooding policies and the poorest are always hit hardest. The greatest disgrace is the minimum wage which keeps those at the very bottom of the ladder out of work for ever unless they are very very lucky.

Of course the lefties think every employer is coining it in and screwing his staff for every penny he can get. No doubt there are some like that, but they are very few. Good businessmen know that treating your staff well gets the best results, but lefties are not businessmen they are just interested in failed theories emanating from the ground at Highgate Cemetary.

Anonymous said...

The essence of slavery if forcing one man, against his will, to labor on the behalf of another man.

Thus that is ever was, thus that it ever shall be.

Patrick said...


Yes, sadly this is so true, accept the lefties dont see it like this.. they believe that we should all be treated as equals... even when many of us do not deserve to be treated as good as the bottom of some peoples shoes (essence of human rights bill)..

Indeed we are slaves and money makers for all that choose to drop out of life and expect their handouts as a means to an end...

Of course as slaves we are often told we are natzi scum by the likes of a previous Anon comment earlier in this thread.. I think the overwelming belief in the 'non agression principle', by most of us here, puts pay to that theory.. but I'm guessing ignorance is bliss for thenm that make such a statements... These sentiments and statements will become more prevalent as the poor becomes ever more dependent on state handouts...

However as a slave, I will choose to be as free as I can and die happy. A sentiment made by Old Holborn in one of his recent blogs...

Thatcher's Child said...

Great debate today.

Both the minimum wage and the benefit system in rural areas are really bad ideas that encourage the existence of people like FI

Brought up in a rural backwater, I know loads of people like him / her.

Their arrogance is inflated to bursting point through their useless qualifications - but they will dismiss the experience of a young plumber who is able to earn good money - even though they can't spell Shakespeare!

In my world, if you are not willing to move to the jobs - there is no reason why the rest of society should give you money as a reward for your laziness.
I would also stop the government interfering in the contract between worker and employer. If I want to work for £2 an hour for 100 hours a week - what business is that of theirs?

Unluckily, I don't need to do that - my qualifications ensure that I pay more in tax than FI gets paid on minimum wage.

Anonymous said...

And here was me thinking Libertarianism was about freedom to chose how you lead your life? Fl chooses quality of life over quantity in his / her bank balance.
At no point did Fl state they are supported by the state in fact quite the opposite yet some narrow minded egotistical retards on here insist on leaping to the conclusion because they are earning some pocket money doing a minimum wage job they are a scrounging cunt, my primary education wasn’t in English yet my ability to absorb what has been written appears to be of a higher standard than some of the supposedly super-educated elitist pricks here.

Has it not occurred to anyone that for a society to function not everyone can be at the top of the food chain? And is Libertarianism really so elitist that anyone who is earning less money through choice or ability are thought of as a lesser human being.

I don’t advocate the hand out culture we live in nor do I have any time for socialism but I utterly despise ‘I’m al'right jack, fuck you’ mentality more than I hate the Labourite boys club bastards that run this country.

And please can we end this ‘my dad is harder than your dad’ pissing contest with ‘claimed’ qualifications, it really does come across quite pathetic and desperate.

Old Holborn said...

We live in a meritocracy, no matter how hard Socialists try to change it.

It is a natural state. It works just as well for a lettuce struggling for the best sunlight in the garden as it does for a human being.

You earn what you deserve to earn. You may sacrifice one thing in the hope or expectation of acquiring another. Such is life.

The problem with society is the belief encouraged by those in power that you do not need to earn money to receive money. No sacrifices need be made. Fundamentally wrong and extremely dangerous.

Fi is only an artist in so much as she paints pictures. If she were a successful artist, she would not need to supplement her income with minimum wage jobs. Ergo, she is a shit artist and should get another career if she wishes to be successful. If she doesn't wish to be successful then she should carry on but not expect any other person to fund her extravagance.

The world is full of people who used other peoples money to indulge their fantasies, massage their egos and then eventually go back to what they do best. Fuck all.

Patrick said...

Reality check,

Indeed, people can choose to make the decisions they make and live with the consequencies..

But as was pointed out this was a debate about minimum wage.. for which the most part excludes the poor from any possible enrichment in the future..

Minimum wage keeps the poor poor.. Its very clear..

This has little or nothing to do with the 'Im alright jack' culture as you presuppose... If someone or a job is worth minimum wage, then so be it...

However what happens to those jobs for which are not worth that?... but with time and experience may well provide the person with an opportunity they may never have had given the regulation surrounding wages currently...

Lets keep to the point please...

Fiona said...

Reality Check

Thank you, you are the only one who seems to have noticed that I do not claim benefits of any kind and have no support from the state (or anyone else for that matter).

Brought up in a rural backwater? I don't think so mate. I've lived in three different countries and probably have more experience of the world than you'll ever have. Oh, and my ex husband was a plumber, my father an electrician - don't give me your elitist crap. If this is something you feel guilty about, then fuck off and deal with it.

Holborn, Christ you are more ignorant than I originally thought. How small minded can anyone be?

Anonymous said...

Something odd about the original story here - the DTI (or whatever it's called now) has already announced that the minimum wage will be £5.73 from October.

See here:

NHS Fail Wail

I think that we can all agree that the UK's response to coronavirus has been somewhat lacking. In fact, many people asserted that our de...