Comments on The Devil's Kitchen: Congratulations to Ben Goldacre

That's not really an analysis, so much as an a...

2011-12-01T12:32:21.711Z

That's not really an analysis, so much as an assertion. You are evidently quoting from somewhere, what is the source?

Even if true, it is not enough information to be useful. Today's contributions pay for tomorrows pensions, and today's pensions are paid out from yesterdays contributions. There is simply no relevant link between current pensions pay out, and current contributions. (As an extreme example, if the number of members has doubled recently, then saying that contributions match payouts is meaningless).

Really the only relevant issue for a pension is does the pay out for person A, reflect the amount person A contributed. If Person A is getting vastly more in pension than they paid in, they are doing that at the expense of someone else.

Chris M - surely you are not disputing this analys...

2011-11-30T14:30:18.526Z

Chris M - surely you are not disputing this analysis? "The NHS pension scheme (unlike most private final salary schemes) is well funded by it's members (US!) and makes a considerable SURPLUS (£2.1bn/yr). Presently this is a well run scheme, rewarding a lifetime of hard work.
But it could be a nice little earner for Dave, Nick and George. If we'd all be kind enough to increase our contributions, for a smaller pension and die shortly after we retire 68, we can bail out a few more banks".

Its considerably more than 50p. "nothing exc...

2011-11-28T20:46:40.407Z

Its considerably more than 50p.

"nothing excites the movers and shakers quite like 'them' and 'us' squabbling."

Fine, then accept the pension reforms and we'll stop squabbling. That will show "the movers and shakers" eh!

"If pensions in the private sector are inadequate the obvious question is why - "

Gordon Brown's tax raid didn't help. Moreover, it is not just about private sector pensions being inadequate, it is that some public sector pensions are too generous - and unfunded.

Of course a person who doesn't think very much might think that greedy companies are trying to cut pension benefits to increase their profits, and that the answer is for companies to pay out better pensions, even at the expense of lower profits. A person who does think things through of course will realise that private sector pensions are paid for by the profits that the private sector makes.

"I'll bet private pensions don't improve as a result of the current cutbacks in the state sector though"

No, but tax bills will not be as high as they would be without the cutbacks, meaning that people have more of the money they earned left in their pocket to spend as they see fit, possibly on increasing their contributions to their own pension.

"The private sector are paying for those stat...

2011-11-28T20:14:13.237Z

"The private sector are paying for those state pensions, and they are paying for better pensions than they get themselves" - ahh, nothing excites the movers and shakers quite like 'them' and 'us' squabbling.

Oh look, moan one group of underlings, you've got 50p more than me.

If pensions in the private sector are inadequate the obvious question is why - I'll bet private pensions don't improve as a result of the current cutbacks in the state sector though, neither will quality of life.

If you think it will perhaps you let us know what tangible benefits you expect?

A&E nurse, you started the stereotyping with y...

2011-11-28T16:28:06.210Z

A&E nurse, you started the stereotyping with your " some poor pensioner (who used to work in the public sector) wants enough money to leave the heating on for an extra hour or two,"

"What I don't understand is the envy and stereotyping that goes on (with regard to recipients of a state pension)."

I assume you mean a public sector pension. A state pension is not really very much at all, and is received by all.
It's quite simple really. The private sector are paying for those state pensions, and they are paying for better pensions than they get themselves. Furthermore they are not funded like most pensions by the performance of investments, but by the taxpayer.

"and when I last looked collective bargaining was a perfectly legal and democratic activity?"

A very silly point indeed. If we were only allowed to criticise illegal activities, that would mean we would not be able to criticise most of what the state does. That said, changing the pension conditions of the public sector is also a perfectly legal and democratic activity, so what's your problem; given that you find anything that is legal and democratic is acceptable.

I find it paradoxical that often those squawking loudest about the greed of the private sector are so obvious about pursuing their own self interest.

"there will be little discernible difference to the quality of your life, or to those of your market-loving follow travelers."

That is almost certainly not true.

"When will you public sector workers learn th...

2011-11-28T11:21:14.772Z

"When will you public sector workers learn that we don't view you as angels—or even necessary".

Devil, you are too intelligent a fellow to split the value of workers into two monolithic camps (private good, public bad) - not least because the roles themselves are important even if we may disagree about the way in which they should be provided.

What I don't understand is the envy and stereotyping that goes on (with regard to recipients of a state pension).
IF some public pensions are marginally better then this is presumably because of collective bargaining rather than the powers-that-be tripping over themselves to award better conditions to the underlings - and when I last looked collective bargaining was a perfectly legal and democratic activity?

You say you are "no longer prepared to be made significantly poorer so that you people can enjoy riches far beyond what you pay for—and far beyond what we can afford".

Now you have to be careful here because ChrisM may start off on his 'world's smallest violin' schtick but I can promise you one thing - even if pensions are reduced (which they inevitably will) there will be little discernible difference to the quality of your life, or to those of your market-loving follow travelers.

Perhaps you will then need a new target and I think a good a pace as any to start is here?
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2058459/State-owned-RBS-dish-500million-bonuses-despite-diving-profits.html

In other words why not

A&E, "You lot have put your faith in ...

2011-11-28T10:34:47.213Z
A&E,

"You lot have put your faith in the market even though the market rewards many hard working people with a shitty pension - why is anyone surprised about this?"

The market does not reward anyone with anything—other than information. And the information from the market tells us that:

1) public sector pension rewards are way, way above what public sector workers pay into them,

2) these rewards are therefore unaffordable, and

3) those of us who actually have to pay for them—you know, those of us actually creating wealth—are no longer prepared to be made significantly poorer so that you people can enjoy riches far beyond what you pay for—and far beyond what we can afford.

When will you public sector workers learn that we don't view you as angels—or even necessary?

Get it?

DK

http://cdn.bikechatforums.com/files/worlds-smalles...

2011-11-28T10:28:37.398Z
http://cdn.bikechatforums.com/files/worlds-smallest-violin_190.jpg
I thought it was the libertarians who were whining?

You lot have put your faith in the market even though the market rewards many hard working people with a shitty pension - why is anyone surprised about this?

http://cdn.bikechatforums.com/files/worlds-smalles...

2011-11-28T09:54:57.112Z
http://cdn.bikechatforums.com/files/worlds-smallest-violin_190.jpg

Congratulations, Devil - not a peep from you when ...

2011-11-27T09:28:42.420Z
Congratulations, Devil - not a peep from you when the greedy bankers were rewarding themselves yet another mega-bonuses - but should some poor pensioner (who used to work in the public sector) wants enough money to leave the heating on for an extra hour or two, you start frothing at the mouth.

Chris Riddles 'Finger of blame" doodling is apposite?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2011/nov/27/davidcameron-november-30-public-sector-strike

You really do need to get some perspective my market fundamentalist friend.

Goldacre is a smug arrogant twat from the Amazing ...

2011-11-27T09:27:00.387Z
Goldacre is a smug arrogant twat from the Amazing Randi "I know best" school.

Of course, for those working in the public sect...

2011-11-27T07:24:08.585Z
Of course, for those working in the public sector, the fact that "we don't sack shit people" is a benefit

To a point, Lord Copper. It's a benefit for the ones who are shit. It's a cost for the ones who aren't, since working with shit people is an immensely unrewarding and frustrating experience.

So that people do not die unnecessarily, we should...

2011-11-26T16:18:47.147Z
So that people do not die unnecessarily, we should raise public sector pay in those areas where living costs are high? You're being very generous with my money, Devil.

Goldacre is an arse, as is evident from his studio...

2011-11-26T15:07:46.557Z
Goldacre is an arse, as is evident from his studious avoidance of any assessment of the evidence for manmade climate change. I mean, he makes a living from chasing dodgy stats, but somehow avoids addressing the biggest (most expensive) issue of the day.