Comments on The Devil's Kitchen: Quote of the Day

@bewick: You seem to be reading more into my comme...

2012-01-29T16:44:33.479Z

@bewick: You seem to be reading more into my comment than was there. I agree with DK on the idiocy of the metric.

I am also in no need of a lecture on the subject, having pointed out your mistake to you.

@ Simon Jester & others I am fortunate in ...

2012-01-29T16:04:11.732Z

@ Simon Jester & others

I am fortunate in that I own an inherited property in the Midlands which I rent out. The rent is just £370 a month (£4400 a year) for a 3 bed semi.I haven't increased the rent for 3 years because I was actually paying less for the mortgage and protected my tenant.
He has 3 kids who live with his ex partner. At one time he had to take 3 months off work to care for the kids when his ex partner had a serious operation. Housing benefits judged that the rent was too high for a single occupant. I gave him some slack - he later paid me back.
I know something about his financial situation. He earns nothing like £26k net (probably the median but not the mean or average) yet he pays his rent and all bills, supports his kids, and can still afford an iphone. He doesn't spread his seed!
Contrast that with the many single mothers in my village. They get everything free, the fathers don't contribute,they get pregnant again when the youngest approaches 7.

On the reverse my grandfather TWICE, in the 1930s moved his family 50 and then 100 miles, to get work. The "out of work" in my village won't even consider travelling the 10 miles where there are jobs.
Child benefit and child tax credit are outdated. Child benefit may have been near essential in 1950 when the country was trying to repopulate but no longer. Should be stopped now.
Apparently "child poverty" now means not having the latest trainers, a Wii or xbox, or a personal TV. NOT the "poverty" I experienced in the 50s when a good pair of shoes was unlikely - but then I didn't regard it as poverty.

@ Simon Jester. Yes I know full well that median, ...

2012-01-29T15:37:23.713Z

@ Simon Jester. Yes I know full well that median, mean and mode are all different types of "average". Plus there are such things as "weighted averages" which "true average" is.
I have used all in a very long career.

Consider the following - a "tutor" for maths teachers (why would maths teachers need this I wonder - isn't it basic?)-
"The term median refers to an average value indicated by the middle number or numbers in a series. It can be different from the "mean", which is the average value found by adding the numbers and dividing.

Where there is an odd number of values, the median is the central (middle) value.
For example, in the set [ 1, 2, 7, 50, 100 ] the median value is 7. There will be as many values less than the median as there are greater than the median. (if you have duplicate values, more than one may be equal to the median)

Where there is an even number of values, the median is the mean (average) of the two central values. For example, in the set [ 1, 2, 7, 9, 50, 100 ], there are two central values, 7 and 9. The median would be 8, and again there will be as many values less than the median as there are greater than the median.

To find the median : put your numbers in order by their value, and count the number of values. Divide the number of values by two to locate the center value or values. Where the number of values is even, add and average the two in the middle.

Example : values [ 27, 18, 3, 99, 55, 1, 16 ]
Ordered set : [ 1, 3, 16, 18, 27, 55, 99 ]
Median : 18

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_median_means_in_math#ixzz1krQ2GiP6"

Actually this can sometimes be simplistic.

The median is usually totally unweighted, unlike the mean,or average.
Like ALL statistics the "median" can be highly misleading as can the "mean". For example the "median salary" can totally disguise that rather more earn somewhat less than the median, or mean, than those who earn more. A bell curve would better explain but the true mathematical average - value times number per value, added, and divided by total numbers, is rather more indicative. Then again of course the number of hours worked also has value.
Depends what you want to prove and sadly the Government has bottled out of undertaking anything really radical. MY best guess is that the "cap" should be , say, £15k if it was ever to prove that working is better.
I totally agree with the Devil that working people should not fund profligate breeding by those determined never to work. At the same time I totally support giving help to honest people suffering misfortune.

"There is all the difference in the world bet...

2012-01-28T19:16:37.985Z

"There is all the difference in the world between treating people equally and attempting to make them equal." – F. A. Hayek

@bewick, median, mean and mode are all different t...

2012-01-28T18:08:43.217Z

@bewick, median, mean and mode are all different types of average. I suspect you were thinking of the arithmetic mean when you said that median is not average.

oops I meant "net" cap since the payment...

2012-01-27T20:51:56.003Z

oops I meant "net" cap since the payments are totally tax free

Devil. "median" is NOT "average&quo...

2012-01-27T20:50:11.583Z

Devil. "median" is NOT "average". It is the MIDDLE of a range. That range may well have more, or less, above or below. There may be 5 million earning say £20k a year and 1 million earning £40k. the median is £30k; the average is £23.33k - as it happens likely close to the true average of UK gross (NOT net) earnings and significantly lower than the proposed (gross) "cap".

well the a&e charge nurse I really DO hope tha...

2012-01-27T20:34:53.357Z

well the a&e charge nurse I really DO hope that you are kidding because I am considering returning to my roots and the DRI would be my most local hospital.
Interesting that you have no response to everything else I said.

"Please tell me your general geographical are...

2012-01-27T19:56:58.221Z

"Please tell me your general geographical area. I really do not wish to arrive in A&E to be met by such a judgmental "200 tractors today" communist supporter".

I work here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/derby/content/images/2009/05/21/accident_gallery_03_470x300.jpg

Relax ....... only kidding

To the a&e charge nurse. Please tell me your g...

2012-01-27T19:18:15.927Z

To the a&e charge nurse.
Please tell me your general geographical area. I really do not wish to arrive in A&E to be met by such a judgmental "200 tractors today" communist supporter. You will likely judge me "too rich" and "too intelligent" (MY IQ is 155) to be treated.
The Chinese people have little in welfare. They HAVE to work. Just as it was in the UK in the 20s and 30s and before. Since circa 1970 "welfare" has almost eliminated any work ethic for millions.
Unless you are completely blind then you, as an A&E nurse, will see the results of the now out of control welfare system. I'd sort of guess that many of your patients are welfare claimants who have no intention of ever working.

I heard just this week, from her 18 year old son, that a 36 year old who has never worked in her life is trying to get pregnant. Why? Well her youngest is approaching 7 at which point the gravy train stops.
SO, A&E charge nurse, I suppose that you are quite happy to work in a difficult job and pay tax to support this freeloader.
I'm retired. I pay tax and I'm not happy. In fact I'm totally wazzed off (Derbyshire expression) Sad thing is that this is a small village and the 36 year old is just one of many here and there ARE jobs both locally and 10 miles away. (North East).
I even hear them swapping "tips" in the village shop. The latest seems to be coach the kids in autism and/or ADHD because that can produce more free cash and perhaps a free car. (many have managed that)
Of course the fathers of the many kids are never revealed and never pay. YOU and I do.

I expect that you are one of the ones complaining about "child workers" in India. That country has no welfare system and having the kids work is the difference between the family eating or not eating. You may argue that that is not right but little more than 100 years ago that happened here as well. Stop it and guarantee death for many - unless that is you wish to open YOUR pocket. Feel free.

"It's a fucking crazy metric that justifi...

2012-01-27T18:47:46.765Z

"It's a fucking crazy metric that justifies all sorts of ludicrous rent-seeking and hand-wringing" - the evidence that inequality harms societies is there for all to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw

The J...

2012-01-27T18:20:04.849Z

The Joseph Rowntree Report linked to above uses that wonderful measure of relative poverty—which the report describes thusly...

"A household is deemed to be in poverty if its income is less than 60% of median (average) household income for the year in question."

So, if the rich get richer faster than the poor do, more people are deemed to be in poverty—even if those "poor" were richer this year than last.

It's a fucking crazy metric that justifies all sorts of ludicrous rent-seeking and hand-wringing.

Oh, and it is a total lie—you are not in poverty just because you are earning less than someone else. What kind of twisted morality could possibly conclude that?

I am considerably less well-off than lots of people, but it would be a joke to describe me as living in poverty.

DK

The J...

2012-01-27T18:20:01.145Z

You said "Are you saying that we cannot even ...

2012-01-27T18:04:35.129Z

You said "Are you saying that we cannot even agree on core values, signified by having a roof over your head, education and access to a comprehensive health service?"

When challenged to do just this, you were not able to do it. If these core values we all agree on exist, then you should be able to tell me what they are.

Society can no more answer questions of value than it can answer what is society's favourite colour.

Choamsky is as wrong as it is possible to be on most things.

The reason for persistant inequality is people are unequal in all sorts of ways. If all weatlh were split equally right now, and then no further changes made, in a very short period of time in equality will return.

Anway, if you are such a fan of inequality you should be in favour of capping benefits; it reduces the inequality between those on benefits, and the lowest paid.

"You start then, tell us how much a roof is w...

2012-01-27T17:52:26.599Z

"You start then, tell us how much a roof is worth to you. (Doesn't that depend on how big the roof is, and where it is). You tells us how much education is worth. (To what level? where? to Whom). How much would you pay for a comprehensive health service" - all perfectly reasonable questions, but none with solutions so difficult that we, as a society, could not resolve them (if we really wanted to).

I believe the main reason for persistent inequality is that the beneficiaries of the wealth have become rather adept at manipulating the rest of us (so they can hang to as much dosh as possible) - here big bad Noam discusses corporate propaganda, an issue far more important than the odd somali family who find themselves on the front of the Daily Heil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHjfDcQjl-M&feature=related

A cap on benefits of 26K per household will not af...

2012-01-27T15:33:59.983Z

A cap on benefits of 26K per household will not affect 6 million people (a figure which itself I don't beleive), so it is a meaningless stat.

I am not after a "creative" solution, I ...

2012-01-27T15:30:20.116Z

I am not after a "creative" solution, I am after one that does not result in non-working people having more money than working people. Yes, I can imagine that if someone is used to receiving lots of money and goodies courtesy of the tax payer and then you doesnt't get as much, that might make them miserable. That hardly in itself makes a policy unfair.

"Are you saying that we cannot even agree on ...

2012-01-27T15:25:06.000Z

"Are you saying that we cannot even agree on core values, signified by having a roof over your head, education and access to a comprehensive health service?"

You start then, tell us how much a roof is worth to you. (Doesn't that depend on how big the rood is, and whre it is). You tells us how much education is worth. (To what level? where? to Whom). How much would you pay for a comprehensive health service.

"Let's continue with the slum landlord vs cost of health care 'value' - ", no lets not. Rather than pointless digressions lets stick with the point at hand.

"You only have to look at certain Italian cruiser captains to understand how things are once we adopt an every last man for himself type of culture"

Ah yes, the old "Italian cruise ships" model of society.

"I am going to call Bullshit on that 6 millio...

2012-01-27T15:19:40.481Z

"I am going to call Bullshit on that 6 million figure" - I have supplied a link - why would the JRF make it up?

I would it have thought it obvious why I have raised this stat since we are discussing entitlement of those out of work to housing benefit, etc.

The early link I supplied have given some indication as to how many families will be affected, especially in London - I think there are more creative solutions than spreading great dollops of misery around the place, don't you?

A&E, "... supposing hospitals started...

2012-01-27T15:18:27.656Z
A&E,

"... supposing hospitals started behaving like Maida Vale rip-off merchants..."

But that, of course, would never happen: because, of course, A&E nurses and all the other altruistic medical practitioners are nothing like slum landlords. As such, they would happily opt for lower salaries so that poor people could afford treatment.

That's correct, no...?

DK

Are you saying that we cannot even agree on core v...

2012-01-27T15:11:52.381Z
Are you saying that we cannot even agree on core values, signified by having a roof over your head, education and access to a comprehensive health service?

I mean I'm sure we all agree that our values extend to a non-corrupt judicial system, army, etc - so why not the other stuff?

Let's continue with the slum landlord vs cost of health care 'value' - I mean supposing hospitals started behaving like Maida Vale rip-off merchants (skilled in the art of screwing the desperate) - now I know that's exactly where Lansley wants to take us but I guarantee it won't belong before there is a growing lament about how much better things used to be when we had a comprehensive, and free at the point of delivery system, irrespective of ability to pay.

You only have to look at certain Italian cruiser captains to understand how things are once we adopt an every last man for himself type of culture
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-01/18/c_122598782.htm

I don't have any reason to think you know more...

2012-01-27T15:10:31.814Z
I don't have any reason to think you know more than I do about what Chinese workers think. Nor does it actually matter. The fact is that Chinese labour costs have increased substantially over the last 10 years. The fact that you have a problem with Nike factories is your problem, not Chinese workers'.

I am going to call Bullshit on that 6 million figure. I am not sure what the unemployment figure has to do with a cap on benefits either, or why it means unemployed people should receive more money than employed people.

Landlords are not ripping anyone off in getting the maximum rent they can for their properties. The solution is more houses being built, not rent controls.

You mean that when society as a whole places a value on things (ie the free market), and it doesn't tally with what you think the value should be, your opinion should prevail over society's value.

"I would argue that the more useful something is then the higher the value it should have "
That's not an argument, that is an assertion, and a silly one at that. How do you measure how useful something is, especially given that value is subjective. Not only does it vary from person to person, it varies for the same person depending on circumstance.

Still you are free to value things in anyway you wish, but not free to impose your value system on anyone else.

" maybe we could put such a question to those trying to assess hospital treatment for example (since you mention nurse pay) as opposed to how much slum landlord are able to trouser."

This sentence doesn't even make sense.
But if you really want to know how much someone values hospital treatment, make people pay for it.
As for "slum landlord" who are you to call all landlords slum landords. You are quite the bigot really aren't you.

A&E, "One of the factors that has so ...

2012-01-27T14:55:33.067Z
A&E,

"One of the factors that has so distorted the way money moves about our society is the relative values we put on different things?"

*sigh*

Every person in this country puts a different value on different things. That is why we need markets in the first place.

"I would argue that the more useful something is then the higher the value it should have - maybe we could put such a question to those trying to assess hospital treatment for example (since you mention nurse pay) as opposed to how much slum landlord are able to trouser."

This is the absolute/intrinsic value fallacy. As stated, every one of the 60 odd million people in this country values things differently—because we are thinking creatures with our own dreams and desires.

So, who is going to set these absolute values?

As it happens, I put more value—at this time—on having a roof over my head than I do about nurses. I haven't even been to a GP in over ten years.

So, to me, somewhere decent to live is far more important than a nurse. Do you see?

For those times when I do need medical treatment, I have paid large amounts of tax for A&E departments—and some more cash for top-hole medical insurance.

But all of the above reflects my personal priorities; the guy at the next desk has different priorities (swimming pools), and you have different ones again.

So, who is going to be setting these values, precisely? And who is this "we"?

DK

"It's worth noting that these efforts are...

2012-01-27T14:40:46.392Z
"It's worth noting that these efforts are driven by a commercial company responding its customers' disgust" - corporations soon overcome disgust by appealing to the customers 'inner consumer' - for example, conditions in Nike factories have been known about for some time but the siren lure of a sexy new pair of runner is virtually impossible to resist it seems?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/apr/14/ethicalbusiness.money

Mind you, I doubt if those in poverty today are consoled by the fact they are enjoying a slightly better class of misery than yesteryear?
According to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation "By mid-2011, six million people were unemployed, lacking but wanting work or working part-time because no full time job was available. Though no higher than the previous year, this was 2 million higher than in 2004".
http://www.jrf.org.uk/publications/monitoring-poverty-2011?gclid=CMGQ5NCz8K0CFdQTfAodfSEAuQ

Additionally "The number of households accepted as homeless in England rose in 2010/11 for the first time since 2003/04 and now stands at 65,000. The number of court orders for mortgage repossessions in England and Wales rose to 21,000 in the first half of 2011, the first significant rise for three years".

Is it really beyond our powers as a society to ensure that people at least have decent roof over their head - if it means rip off landlords becoming slightly less well off then so be it (since their main bargaining tool is how desperate prospective tenants are).

One of the factors that has so distorted the way money moves about our society is the relative values we put on different things?
I would argue that the more useful something is then the higher the value it should have - maybe we could put such a question to those trying to assess hospital treatment for example (since you mention nurse pay) as opposed to how much slum landlord are able to trouser.

A&E, 1) Apple, for one, are trying to improve...

2012-01-27T12:56:42.745Z
A&E,

1) Apple, for one, are trying to improve the conditions in the factories that they use. They have recently published a report into how they are attempting to ensure better conditions in their supply chain, and how effective these have been.

It's worth noting that these efforts are driven by a commercial company responding its customers' disgust. Such changes are not being driven by a benevolent Chinese state (or, indeed, by ours).

2) Yes, but what percentage, A&E? Surely you should give away everything but the barest minimum that you need to live—I would suggest that around the £12,000 NMW level would be appropriate. Otherwise you are simply perpetuating the "uneven distribution of wealth and resources".

3) The rich get richer whilst the poor also get richer (albeit at a slower rate). Yes, even now.

4) You may think the landlords are greedy—fine. But there are two approaches to take:
a) for the government to stop paying whatever exorbitant rents the landlords demand. This might take the form of some kind of... well, some kind of rent cap.
b) the government mandates what rents must be. And if that is the approach that you advocate, then you had better hope that I never, ever get into power.

Because, in order to make a point, I will make it illegal for you—yes, you personally, A&E—can never rent your labour for anything above whatever level I set (and it'll certainly be no more than the NMW).

Or is it OK for you to rent your labour for as much as you can get, and not OK for a landlord to rent his property for as much as he can get...?

DK

Comments on The Devil's Kitchen: Quote of the Day

@bewick: You seem to be reading more into my comme...

@ Simon Jester & others I am fortunate in ...

@ Simon Jester. Yes I know full well that median, ...

"There is all the difference in the world bet...

@bewick, median, mean and mode are all different t...

oops I meant "net" cap since the payment...

Devil. "median" is NOT "average&quo...

well the a&e charge nurse I really DO hope tha...

"Please tell me your general geographical are...

To the a&e charge nurse. Please tell me your g...

"It's a fucking crazy metric that justifi...

The J...

The J...

You said "Are you saying that we cannot even ...

"You start then, tell us how much a roof is w...

A cap on benefits of 26K per household will not af...

I am not after a "creative" solution, I ...

"Are you saying that we cannot even agree on ...

"I am going to call Bullshit on that 6 millio...

A&E, "... supposing hospitals started...

Are you saying that we cannot even agree on core v...

I don't have any reason to think you know more...

A&E, "One of the factors that has so ...

"It's worth noting that these efforts are...

A&E, 1) Apple, for one, are trying to improve...