Wednesday, September 09, 2009

Hain, the BNP and lack of distinction

Apparently, some people have been agonising about whether the BNP should be allowed on Question Time. And that perma-tanned moron Peter Hain has decided that, when the BNP appear, he will boycott the programme.
Mr Hain – a veteran of the anti-fascist campaigns of the 1970s – insisted the “no platform” policy should remain in place.

He said: “I was horrified when I heard about this, because it makes them [the BNP] appear as if they are another political party sitting on a panel along with democratically-elected parties.”

Look, you orange moron, the BNP are a "democratically-elected" party—they have councillors and even a couple of MEPs. They may be a repulsive bunch of knuckle-dragging, national socialist fuckwits but they are, nevertheless, democratically-elected.

Furthermore, the refusal of the three main parties to engage with the BNP gives the impression that there is—and can be—no refutation of their idiot policies. Trying to no-platform the BNP has not worked so far—so why the bloody hell would you continue with this policy?

Why indeed? The Appalling Strangeness puts it down to cowardice.
In fact, I'd argue that the rise of the BNP is in part down to the failure of the Labour party - and every other party in this country - to make the case against the BNP, and to offer people in this country a real alternative to the status quo. Hain is following the old strategy in relation to the BNP of sticking his head in the sand in the hope that they will go away. Unfortunately, the strategy didn't work. The main party policy of silence on the BNP allows them to get away with their unthinking ignorance without being called on it. And guess what? It helped them to win those seats on local councils, and helped them get those MEPs.

No doubt Hain sees his boycott as a chance for him to champion himself as a progressive politician refusing to give the cowardly and ignorant BNP a real platform in this country. Unfortunately, he comes across as the coward. He comes across as a man who won't debate the BNP because he is afraid of making his case.

Well, this may be so—but it may not be cowardice that is driving this motive. I think that the lovely Bella nails the real reason why all of the main parties are afraid to engage with the BNP...
But given what the ASI lists as some of the BNP’s policies, I suspect Hain doesn’t think them idiotic at all:
  • The protection of British companies from unfair foreign imports

  • The renationalisation of monopoly utilities and services

  • Bring hospital cleaning back in-house and make high cleanliness a top priority
  • More emphasis must be placed on healthy living with greater understanding of sickness prevention through physical exercise, a healthier environment and improved diets

  • Develop renewable energy sources such as off-shore wind farms, wave, tidal and solar energy

  • The introduction of a system of workfare for those in unemployment benefit for more than six months with compulsory work and training in return for decent payment

  • Take all privatised social housing stock back under local democratically controlled council ownership

Perhaps Hain sees, as do the rest of us who are not blinded by polemic, that the only thing that separates the BNP from its more traditional rivals is its racism. And if the BNP refuse to be engaged on their racism, and want to talk about their platform of social justice instead, Hain and everybody else are going to find themselves in the unenviable position of agreeing with the BNP but not wishing to admit it. And so the BNP will come across as being quite firm in their ideas, whilst the three main parties flail about trying to show that their sort of social justice is somehow demonstrably different from the BNP’s.

It isn’t.

Quite so. And this rather excellent post does rather paint a stark picture of the political discourse in this country: we have two basic options—Social Democracy (of varying flavours but all, effectively, offering more of the same) and libertarian.

The choice is between political parties that believe that your desires should be subordinate to that of "society" (as personified by the state), and a political party that believe that the freedom of the individual is paramount.

The choice is between politicos who believe that it is not only possible but actually desirable to shape society—that's you and me—according to their own personal prejudices, and the Libertarian Party.

Just saying...


Charles said...

Back on form with this post, DK.

What I find most frustrating about the BNP is the way everyone calls them Fascist. The fact they are racist neanderthals is not enough to make them Fascist. Apart from the racism they are left-wing to the point of being Communist, which as far as I'm concerned is yet another reason to hate the cunts.

Anyone remember their campaign literature... "Make the owners work and the workers own". Heh, if only those UAF morons were actually smart enough to read, they'd change their name to the UARC (Union Against Racist Communists)

Pogo said...

As far as I can see it's all a storm in a C-cup anyway. It makes fuck-all difference whether "mainstream" politicos empty-chair the BNP or "destroy them" with the power of their debating skills because the political nerds who watch Question Time would never contemplate voting BNP and the average BNP voter isn't going to be watching QT.

Roger Thornhill said...

Empty chair or emptied bowel?

Maybe if the chair was a commode, then Labour might sit in it.

Just thinking.

p.s. Hail Spode.

Pault said...

Yes, completely agree with you, Devil.

This BNP policy made me laugh:

More emphasis must be placed on healthy living with greater understanding of sickness prevention through physical exercise, a healthier environment and improved diets

This is very close to the health and body worship that was all the rage in central Europe (including Germany) in the 1920s and 1930s.

At that time there was a worship of ancient Sparta, because it was thought that Sparta trained up fit, tough young men (mainly men) who could serve their country.

You can still see the remnants of this in the names of some football clubs, e.g. Sparta Prague, Sparta Rotterdam.

It's only a small step from this type of health/body worship to mass gymnastic displays of the type that Nazi Germany and Communist countries used to excel at. Strahov stadium in Prague is a physical remnant of this body worship fetish and nuttiness. It is a structure so huge that it is useless for anything - even the Rolling Stones couldn't fill it.

If Labour and the BNP get their way, Wembley will be given over to coordinated dancing displays of barely-dressed British youth at least twice a year.

The thought makes me retch....

Richard said...


They are fascists. Why should the "left-wing" aspects of their proposals negate that? Mussoliniwanted the collectivisation of all industry, to be organised together by trade, and the economy planned centrally for the national good by a council representing each trade or industry: Syndicalism. Hitler wanted nationalisation of utilities and major industries, forced profit sharing, and the nationalisation of land. Both called for such things in order to combat "exploiting capitalists." Fascists are socialists.

Andrew Ian Dodge said...

If the BBC lets on MPAC UK, the Greens and RESPECT they had to let on the BNP. If they let on 3 racist organisations why not all of them?

Charles said...

Richard, so fascism and communism are the same thing? So the BNP are still racist Communists then?

Edgar said...

The 'knuckle-draggers' of the BNP are about to be swamped by ordinary people who have just had enough of all the bullshit, that includes most of the fucking rubbish above that is posed as commentary.

At the moment, the one and only serious alternative to the state stranglehold that is slowly destroying the country is the BNP.

I would very much prefer the Libertarian Party to be in that position, but it isn't. So, I have a little dilemma, come the election.

Richard said...

Charles, well, I didn't say that fascism and communism were the same thing, but I would say both are species of socialism. The BNP are racist socialists, yes.

Charles said...

It all comes down to the great circle. The centre is the same just as the extremes are the same, it's the stuff in between that differs.

Pault said...

Richard, members of the BNP might be racist, but I think that they're national socialists rather than racist socialists.

The reason is that they don't support all white people, but only white Britons, which are people that they claim are indigenous to Britain.

The clue, after all, is in the name: "British National Party", not "White Persons Party".

Rob said...

"So the BNP are still racist Communists then?"

Racist collectivists would be a closer description.

bella gerens said...

In fairness, Pault is right. I'm a white Anglophone immigrant, and the BNP would certainly 'repatriate' me.

So if they're racist, it's a particular brand of racism. But as has been discussed on this blog, racism is not simply a matter of discriminating by colour.

Anonymous said...

The British People have genuine concerns which the current political correctness prevents them discussing

Labour sound bite “it will be much harder for British firms to employ non European workers” which is just spin and no substance, after Gordon's famous "British jobs for British workers"

We have a problem with floods of 3rd world workers in this country. the problem is the inter company transfer visas! The leading Indian outsourcers Cognizant, Satyam, Tech Mahindra, Tata etc etc have tens and tens of thousands of staff here on these Visas. The staff are not in much of a real sense working for the company which brought them in, rather they are immediately subcontracted (for less than a European could possibly afford to work for) into our public sector and large companies. India is sucking up some of our key skills, and forcing our own workforce out of work. I should add that such folk after a few years here are eligible to apply for indefinite leave to remain and there we have it totally uncontrolled immigration. Also worth noting that they can bring their family in, partners and children who are also entitled from day one of entry access to the NHS and our education system. WHEN I WORK ABROAD I PAY FOR MY HEALTHCARE AND KIDS EDUCATION! Some very seriously ill people coming into the country via this route and draining our health resources. To say nothing of those bring a few kids in and taking places at schools that just could never have planned for such unplanned extra heads to educate. There maybe enough school places on average in the country but there sure is not in the hotspot areas. Many have already got indefinite leave to remain (due to time in the country, or having kids here), when they get this they are finally able to leave the company which brought them in, get a job anywhere in the UK, and help force down even more wages for Europeans (as they had been doing already when subcontracted via their Indian outsourcer). Up until that point they are treated very badly like modern days slaves, indentured servitude. Now the outsourcing and offshoring business has already moved countless tens of thousands of our most highly skilled jobs to India, and similar countries. we have compounded this by allowing totally unrestricted inward movement of Indian nationals on inter company transfer visas. This cannot continue. The country cannot sustain this. Normal market forces are totally broken, and the UK really needs to think long and hard about how it is going to compete with countries which disregard health and safety and the norms of good employment practise. We should be educating and training our own people, and market forces without this influx would have forced employers to spend more on training our own workforce. Sadly I expect real serious problems for us ahead if we allow this to continue. If we are going to continue to allow this we may as well allow all Indian nationals free work visas, why should we allow the Cognizants to make money simply by providing a mechanism for these folk to get Visas? We need proper managed migration a situation where so many of our own highly qualified folk are unemployed in the recession and we are still allowing tens of thousands of Indian nationals into the country to work cannot be sensible. The government on this as many other issues has lost the plot, victim of lobbying from the big industrialists who like having over supply of workers forcing wages down. We should not be supporting this for the reasons of poor employment practises suffered by the Indians brought in as much as anything, we wouldn't support the slave trade, and this is often little different.

Anonymous said...

BT has stopped hiring grads, they hire them in India through their subsidiary Tech Mahindra and bring them in using inter company transfer visas in their tens of thousands. Go look at many of our biggest companies and public sector bodies.

Work visas are not the main issues, inter company transfer visas very much are.

I quote the Migration Advisory Committee ” A separate scheme is created for graduates only which would require 3 months prior experience with the company” since most of the folk being brought in by the big Indian outsourcers are grads (don't ask about the quality of their Indian colleges though) this has made it easier not harder to keep the massive flow of these folk into the country

Anonymous said...

Now the IT and Telco businesses have more than enough Europeans qualified to do the work, many tens of thousands recently thrown out of work

Why are the big Indian outsourcing companies allowed to flout employment law, flout immigration laws, flood the country with cheap labour?

And why pretend any government action is sorting this out. The big Indian outsourcers have taken at least half a million jobs away from European workers in this country in the last few years, partly by moving work to Indian, and partly with staff here on inter company transfers. The UK workers playing fair are being shafted big time.

European workers cannot compete with 3rd world nationals imported here on inter company transfer Visas.

Of course the BNP will continue to make ground, if the main parties allow this and other situations to continue!!!
You can come over on the Dover Ferry without even showing your passport
I am increasingly concerned about how we compete with nations that ignore pollution controls, ignore decent employment practice, ignore health and safety, how can the UK bear the extra cost of these things and the massive cost of our public sector and compete with 3rd world and emerging nations? Especially when we are allowing floods of staff in from these areas and effectively training them up in the very skills that we should be leading the world in, and throwing away our competitive position, and at the same time as throwing our own people on the scrap heap using our own tax spend to send “aid” to the very same countries that are taking the bread from our tables, we really need to rethink our position in the world
Once you give birth in the UK you are NEVER sent home, thousands of people get into the country on a million and one false pretences and have a kid as soon as they can, and bingo life of riley in the UK is guaranteed
The London hospitals (especially) are overflowing with foreign nationals who have not paid into the system, compare and contrast with how much Brits get charged when taken ill abroad
You displace a few thousand of the role models in the community, often the most educated Brits in a family, by allowing Wipro, Cognizant et al to flood the country with 3rd world nationals and this ripples down so that the folk at the bottom of British society really are suffering
I can walk you round many a university community and show you people who really shouldn’t be in the country, and these are genuine places of learning, do the same at some of the dodgy colleges specialising in getting foreign nationals Visas under false pretences and its even worse
Many of the people suffering the most cannot put their arguments very eloquently, and they sure don’t have many politicians listening to them at the moment, they are probably not using the most politically correct language, the country is sleepwalking into a position where the BNP or similar are the only choice in some areas
It is not racist to want sensible debate on these issues, the logical conclusion that we allow ever more thousands of workers from India and similar nations into this country is clearly not going to work, do the maths? We are only a small nation
There are reasons the BNP are gaining ground, and unless the main parties start listening and acting sensibly we are in big trouble
It is not racist to question why we are handing out inter company transfer visas to 3rd world nationals to swamp our workforce
Show me any mainstream party prepared to discuss these matters? Peter Hain is in for a rude shock because the Labour party position is untenable. We don't want the racist elements of the BNP, but we sure do want some change to much of the chaos of current UK policies.

Henry Crun said...

I've often wondered how seemingly rational and intelligent German people were seduced by the Nazis. Reading the excerpt from Bella's blog, I now understand.

There are policies there that would be attractive to most people were they not put forward by an outwardly racist party.

neil craig said...

Hain is a member of a party that engaged in war crimes, mass murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, the sexual enslavement of chuildren & the dissection of living people to steal their bidy organs.

All this to promote the rule of various sorts of unrepentent former employees of the revered Adolf Hitler over much of what used to be Yugoslavia.

If there is any evidence that the entire 12,000 members of the BNP combined show as much racism & support of Nazism as Hain himeself he has yet to produce it. The same applies to all the other obscene animals responsible for bombing Yugoslav cities.

Being a liberal minded democrat I will not refuse to appear on Question Time. Instead I will say these things to his, Dimbleby's or any of his Nazi compatriot's faces. Strangely enough the BBC haven't invited me.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 9/10/2009 04:41:00 AM

To complete against nations that ignore H&S norms, environmental requirements etc.

1. Set our norms to reasonable levels
2. Import tariffs to counter the H+S/environmental/social cost premia

Much as I believe in free trade, much as I think we have gone way over the top with H+S etc. , I believe that 2. is essential – we cannot and should not compete in a race to the bottom on these issues.


john in cheshire said...

I tend to agree with you. All political parties, these days including the Conservative party, are left wing.
The problem with the 'rightwing' is that it doesn't really have a dogma. And that is why it is so difficult for people to argue against the socialist slur of 'right wing' against anyone who disagrees with their dystopian view of life. Right wing is pragmatism - doing what works, rather than what you fantasise about will work. So, in my opinion, right wing good, left wing bad (at the least). Right wing is to treat each situation according to the facts and responding accordingly. Libertarianism appears to come closet to this approach. I'm almost persuaded to vote for the party. However, the BNP approach to immigration and the EU is more in keeping with my desires. So, not being a member of the BNP, I would be inclined to vote for them, to achieve the objective of getting us out of the EU and removing the majority of immigrants from these shores.

neil craig said...

I wouldn't agree that there is less "right wing" doctrine now. Free market libertarianism is understood as well as believed in to a far greater extent than I have ever known before (it could be that it is just us friends on the net know each other but I don't think so). On the other hand the "left" seems totally devoid of any idealogy (that is certainly new). Look at the Blair/Brown thing which is the greatest division across the Labour party this generation - it is entirely about personal ambition, there being no serious idealogical difference between them. There should be some serious differences between socialists & greens, but the fact that the greens, who are actually well to the right of Hitler are accepted as "left" shows how intellectually bankrupt the whole movement is.

I think what we are actually seeing is the extension of state power inevitably leading to more state propaganda passing itself off as "left" or green. The real enemy is the relentless growth of the parasitic & nannying state.


All politics is the intention to shape society,the libertarian party is no different,appeal ,debate and ultimately compulsion,do we not see this every day of our lives?Part of this political degeneration can be attributed to gratuitous baseless insults which show that some peoples attitudes are more righteous than others,there is no rule book for existence on planet earth,we are all just muddling along in the dark,and where there used to be noblesse obliege,those who have the facility of greater breadth of thought have abandoned those in thier charge,to feather thier own nests,and the fact that there is no party but the BNP that voices the great concerns of ordinary people who are frequently described as "knuckle-draging racists"says incalculably more about the state of mind of those that make those pronouncements than the people they direct them at,ans shows little independant thought.Are any of you aware of the conditioning experiment involving a troupe of chimps ,a banana,and a bucket of freezing water?

Anonymous said...

"Knuckle dragging racists". No wonder we're going to hell in a hand cart. You've all been conditioned and brainwashed to within an inch of your lives.

Let's see. Libertarian 'open borders' policy and the subsequent destruction of the national identity of Britain is completely sane and sensible and very far from being extreme. The fact that it ties in nicely with both the EU and the wider drive for world government (the New World Order; do some research before you scoff) is neither here nor there.

BNP 'secure borders' policy along with the protection of the national identity of Britain is 'extreme'. Repatriation of illegal immigrants and foreign criminals along with the widening of an existing scheme of grants to assist in the voluntary repatriation of anyone wishing to do so. Perhaps all those foreign medical staff that we poached from third world countries would like to return home.

What makes me laugh is that the BNP are so 'extreme' that some won't communicate with them and yet real extremists such as the Fabian socialists are politely received.

Mandelson's Gerbil said...

Libertarianism will never happen because most people do not have the tenacity or self-reliance to live in a Libertarian society. It is much easier to just sit on your arse, and be told what to do by authority figures. This is why our government is made up of dickheads', salesmen, and psychopaths'! The only home for a Libertarian is politics, as you can pretty much do what the fuck you like.

I think the BNP in power would be great fun though. The left-wing approach is obviously not working, so let's have a bit of old-fashioned Nationalism to sort everything out, like a great big laxative. If Gordo can sit in the hotseat, then I am sure Griffin will do at least as good a job. I mean, how could he be any worse. And the Blairs' would find themselves on trial, which would finally get me to buy a TV again. Hain would most likely flee to South Africa, and Harman would move to the middle of nowhere with all her Cats'!

It worked for Germany, up to a point, and they were in a much worse situation. If Adolf had laid off the foreign excursions, they would now own the Planet!

Nice uniforms too.

Young men doing mass gymnastics will definitely get them the gay vote too.

Ralph said...

Richard above thinks the BNP are fascist.

Chambers Dictionary defines fascism as being composed for four or five characteristics, one of which is “militarism”. Labour, Tories and G.W.Bush took their milirary forces to Iraq (“for the oil” according to Alan Greenspan) and a million Muslims and Kurds died as a result. In contrast the BNP always opposed the war. Who are the fascists on that score?

And then there is small question of the million or so Muslims and Kurds killed. Who are the racists?

The BNP are going to have to kill an awful lot of Muslims etc before they match the Labour and Tory record on racist genocide.

Another element of fascism as per Chambers dictionary definition is “restrictions on personal freedom”. There have been dozens of articles in broadsheet newspapers in the last year cataloguing the attacks on civil liberties and human rights by Labour.

And then there was the undemocratic (i.e. fascist) decision to implement a policy of mass immigration to the UK, a decision taken without consulting and against the wishes of the majority of Brits: a decision taken by Labour and Tories and opposed by the BNP.

The list of Labour and Tory fascist characteristics is endless. It’s a moot point as to who the fascists are, isn’t it?