Tuesday, December 30, 2008

So what's the fucking problem?

Apparently, this practice of making criminals wear clothing that declares that they are criminals is hurting their poor wee souls.
Criminals wearing orange jackets while working in the community have been abused and jeered at by members of the public, according to study by leaders of the probation officers.

Good. Since ASBOs and tags have apparently become status symbols amongst the varied and assorted scrotes of this country, I have long advocated punishments that involve public humiliation—such as being put in the stocks, naked.
Napo said that opposition was normally on the grounds that wearing the vest demeaned the criminal or that doing unpaid work in the community was punishment itself without offenders having to wear jackets.

Nope: I think that these jackets are a great idea. Apart from anything else, they make a nice, clear distinction between those who are genuinely helping out in the community voluntarily, and those who are doing it because they are horrible criminals who are being punished.
Mr Fletcher said that since the vests were introduced at the beginning of the month there had been several instances of abuse being shouted at criminals. In one case a group of youths shouted “smackheads, lowlifers” at a group working in the community and in another instance cans were thrown at offenders.

Oh, my bleeding fucking heart: the poor wee fuckers. Not. And the fact that a whole bunch of limp, hand-wringing public sector wankers won't take people wearing jackets is their problem, frankly. Fuck 'em.

Personally, I think that these criminal bastards should be grateful: they are getting away quite lightly considering what I would do to them...

27 comments:

Chalcedon said...

NAPO only think of the welfare of criminals, not their victims. Wearing these jackets is a good thing. Receiving abuse is what they deserve. It may help to deter them from commiting another crime.

Community punishment is pretty soft stuff IMO. A public thrashing on the village green or market square should be the norm for these bastards.

Fidothedog said...

Cant do the time and all that.

Hell if I had my way the jackets would have "Kick me for I am a cunt" on the back.

Evil Twin said...

Oh for fuck sake have these people nothing better to moan about, every time I read one of these posts, I hope against hope that it is in fact April 1st and you're having us on.

I second the idea of stocks, but please not naked, that's more than my poor eyes should have to bear!

Anonymous said...

Oh big fucking deal. There's a sheriff in Phoenix Arizona who makes all the inmates wear pink panties.

wahabicorridor

Ian B said...

"I hate this fascist government, I want it to go to hell, oh, except when it's brutalising somebody else, then I wave my Daily Mail in the air and shout "Huzzah! Hip, hip hooray!""

cartermagna said...

Sooooo. Wouldn't being shouted at by the general public constitute being judged by one's peers?

Devil's Kitchen said...

Ian B,

""I hate this fascist government, I want it to go to hell, oh, except when it's brutalising somebody else, then I wave my Daily Mail in the air and shout "Huzzah! Hip, hip hooray!""

Hmmm, so you wouldn't punish criminals at all? Or maybe we should devolve punishment to be decided by the people, locally? I am sure that the punishments would be rather harsher, Ian.

You infringe upon the life, liberty and property of others, and you lose your rights for the duration of your punishment.

Or are you against imprisoning people too?

DK

John Wright said...

'But dude. It's not NICE to yell "smackhead" in a polite modern social democratic society. Can't we aim for a better society than that? Surely these people are not bad but merely misguided? Surely we can all be nice to them regardless and ensure that they are not humiliated? And we haven't even mentioned the psychological trauma and emotional disabilities that may result from this. We need to protect ALL of society, not just those who are good, for goodness' sake.'

:-)

Ian B said...

"You infringe upon the life, liberty and property of others, and you lose your rights for the duration of your punishment."

Sure, but I have no idea whether these people have infringed upon anybody's life, liberty or property, since our "justice" system is now far removed from that principle.

Ever bought any drugs, DK? There's a lot of folks out there who'd like to see you (if you have) cleaning toilets in a fluorescent jacket. Taking that example, how many of these folks are being punished for drugs offences which should not even be illegal? I dunno.

You're making a whole bunch of presumptions in this post. Give me a just nation first, then I'll have a think about appropriate punishments. Horse, then cart, please.

Devil's Kitchen said...

Ian,

"Sure, but I have no idea whether these people have infringed upon anybody's life, liberty or property, since our "justice" system is now far removed from that principle."

I take your point, but I cannot be arsed to make the necessary disclaimers in every post: it would become equally tedious for the both of us.

DK

Shug Niggurath said...

I'd have them in pyjamas with arrows on them.

The fact that they even feel like complaining comes from their years spent with social workers who fill their heads with social justice nonsense.

Can you imagine what social justice would be if it was actually dished out on a local level. Housebreaker? Legs broken. Mug a pensioner? Kicked all the way from the local chippy to the off licence.

But in the new world of social justice you cannot be judgemental, even on those who have been judged through the system. How long til judges become non-judgemental haha!

Mr Handcart said...

I was talking to my barber yesterday who is from Sicily . They have their own way of dealing with problems. Recently a small group of Albanians and Romanians pitched up in the local community and started trying to sell drugs and broke into some houses and were a thorough nuisance. No one reported them to the police but after a short while the problem went away. The wrongdoers obviously decided to leave town because no one saw them again. They simply disappeared.

Works for me!

Kay Tie said...

"The wrongdoers obviously decided to leave town because no one saw them again. They simply disappeared.

Works for me!"

Until you get taken for a wrong 'un and end up dead for no reason. But, hey, their hearts were in the right place.

I rather prefer IanB's take on things. Let's stop saying "they" and start thinking "might be me".

If you think "it won't be me because I'm law-adbiding" then you've not been reading this blog for very long. Just how many new Zanu Labour crimes have you committed?

Every said "bloody foreigners" in public?

Ever played with your cat using your hands?

Ever had a Swiss Army credit-card sized multitool in your pocket?

Ever played a music instrument in a pub without a licence?

Worn an 'inappropriate' T-shirt near Parliament? Dressed as an 'inappropriate' 17th Century catholic explosives afficionado? Done a zillion other things that are now illegal and come with "Community Payback" punishments?

Bob Dowling said...

The General Secretary of NAPO has claimed that there are roughly 35,000 people on community service projects and two thirds of those projects had received their jackets. There have been "about a dozen" incidents of abuse.

Why is this even an issue?

[Data from a BBC news report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7803653.stm
Caveat lector.]

Mr Handcart said...

The mafia solution that I mentioned may have its dangers, but retribution is best meted out in the community in which the transgression has taken place... pour encourager les autres. I believe the IRA and the UDA had a similar scheme in Northern Ireland that kept things fairly peaceful for a while. Now it's all turned namby pamby the regular crime rate has gone through the roof. There may be some lessons to be learned here.

Ian B said...

Hmm. I've always had this suspicion that many of those keen on denationalising law and the courts, in their heart of hearts, dream of a world of random kneecappings. Though it always seems they imagine they'll be the ones swinging the hammers, rather than learning to negotiate curbs in a wheelchair.

Verity said...

We should move with the times and it should be universally accepted that orange jackets are the modern day equivalent of the stocks, and the public are free to taunt and otherwise excercise their right of freedom of expression by throwing old tomatoes and bits of kitchen rubbish at them.

Anonymous said...

Line them all up and shoot them in the face. drug dealers, smackheads, dole cheats, burglars, illegal immigrants, people trying to sell me clothespegs and those fuckers from charities that insist on jumping in my way every ten steps in the city center.

Right, problem solved. Economy next.

Line them all up and shoot them in the face...

Kay Tie said...

"We should move with the times and it should be universally accepted that orange jackets are the modern day equivalent of the stocks, and the public are free to taunt and otherwise excercise their right of freedom of expression by throwing old tomatoes and bits of kitchen rubbish at them."

If we're moving with the times then the kitchen rubbish needs to be kept in a green plastic box for two weeks to be picked up, thrown in a landfill, and the resident fined for not putting their green plastic box out on the right day.

moral dissident said...

I agree with Ian B. There are too many miscarriages of justice and too many criminals "created" by New Labour's New Nazi regime for me to get enthusiastic about publically humiliating people who may already have suffered plenty of injustice from the mob mentality, government/tabloid demonisation and crap CPS/court system in this country. I no longer have any faith in justice, the police or the courts (especially the police). I'm not being bleedin' hearted towards real criminals - I just don't think many of the people wearing orange jackets fall into that category. They could be people who have been prosecuted for protesting, having a traffic accident, speaking their mind, putting their bin out on the wrong day, looking at naughty pictures or pensioners who can't afford their council tax. Crimes? Speaking and looking? There are much worse things and in most cases the police seem to be ignoring them.

Chalcedon said...

Hmmmm. The stocks indeed. Do you really think they only pelted the local riff raff with fruit and veg? LMAO. Stones indeed. Being placed in the stocks could be a death sentence. But some folk never had anything thrown at them. Depended very much on the offence and how the locals felt about the perp. As for reducing the crime rate......just shoot the 20,000 repeat offenders or so who account for 50% of it.

Roger Thornhill said...

Oh for crying out loud, IanB!

The jackets are a good thing. New Labour have screwed up our system so fix THAT, don't use it as an excuse not to solve other problems!

I have no desire for Mafia solutions, as I am a firm believer in Rule of Law, so that bubble is burst, too, m'fraid.

Singapore has used this system for decades. CWO it is called. Seems to work very well indeed. They even place pics in the local papers showing restorative justice in action.

One of the factors in the psychology of repeat criminality is the concept of lack of consequence. These jackets go some way to resolving that IMO.

Misbehave, and look a jerk. Word soon gets out and the dread at such an uncool thing works wonders.

Ian B said...

Oh for crying out loud, Roger. You think Singapore is some kind of model we should be following? A patrician state with strict restrictions on civil liberties and absolute power in the hands of a ruling elite? Don't be an ass.

This isn't a "solution" to a problem. I can't believe somebody who presumably considers themself some kind of libertarian (in hanging around libertarian comments) thinks this is a good idea. It's a means of demonstrating state power over people; it's a reminder that we're all the state's bitches and we'd better not step out of line.

We're heading into a police state. As Kay pointed out above, the list of infractions of the law grows daily. Shit, I broke the law a few weeks ago by changing a socket in my elderly neighbour's kitchen (six months prison, or unlimited fine). Here's a basic rule: in this kind of political situation, you DO NOT cheer on the bastards as they harshen law and punishment. Because you're being a patsy.

Singapore. Fucking hell. Liberty, yay.

Verity said...

Singapore is not in the hands of a ruling elite. Lee Hsieng-Loong was voted in in a regular election. Prime Minister Lee also cut his own and all his ministers' salaries by a great whack to concentrate their minds during the recession.

To what "restrictions on civil liberty" do you refer? Do you seriously think Singapore has more restrictions on civil liberty in Britain, where it's against the law to protest outside Parliament?

Texas, by the way, DK, has a similar system. Prisoners have to work, and they are sometimes taken in gangs to clear the trash along the endless freeways of Texas cities. Iirc, their jackets are also orange, and they read Texas Dept of Corrections. That's so the citizenry knows they're getting something back from these arseholes.

I can't see a downside.

Ian B said...

Maybe you would if you could see past the libertoryan urge to clap like a seal as soon a somebody says they'll bring back the birch.

Devil's Kitchen said...

Ian B,

Indulge me in a thought experiment, if you would.

Let us assume that all of these people deserve some sort of punishment, even under a libertarian system. Let us assume that they have impinged upon someone's life, liberty or property.

Now, can you please tell me what is wrong with doing community service with a distinctive jacket on?

Would you prefer to send them to prison? Or do you not believe in prison?

If not, what would your ideal punishment for criminals be?

DK

Ian B said...

DK, I understand why you're asking me this, but it's not really the issue that matters. It's like asking me what would be my opinion on tarriffs if Britain had an entirely free (internal) market. It's interesting, but it's not the position we're actually in. We're miles, fucking miles, from there.

It's no use trying to be piecemeal about this. You have to look at every law and action of the bastards in the context in which they and we are operating. Take the "liberalsing" of the alcohol licensing laws. A naive person would think that was a liberal act. It wasn't. It was an attempt at social engineering (we were supposed to show our gratitude by drinking less- now they're upset that we aren't and are cracking down on drinkers again). Context is everything.

On law and order, I think the punishment should fit the crime. Like most people, I guess. I'm not sure of the efficacy of parading offenders in various costumes in front of the public, or whether having them do "community work" is particularly efficient- I suspect paying a contractor would be cheaper. But I'm not ideologically opposed to such things in a just polity.

But right now, what you're doing is cheerleading for harshness from a government who we all agree is dangerously out of control. That's pure fucking madness.