Friday, November 28, 2008

The Arrest Of Damian Green

(Author's note - I am not 'The Devil's Kitchen).
And so the historic British nation has come to this.
Less than a week after activists for a perfectly legal political party were arrested for distributing material, a senior member of the opposition has also been arrested, and his homes and offices raided, for daring to perform his role within our constitution.
This stinks like a barrel of fish. We are told that Boris Johnson knew it was coming, but Gordon Brown apparently did not. Why the Mayor of London would know about what is presumably an operational policing matter is anyone's guess. Operational policing matters always used to be beyond the purview of politicians; apparently not any more. The arrest was made on Sir Ian Blair's last day in command of the Metropolitan Police; I use the verb 'command' quite loosely. The complaint upon which the arrest was based apparently came from the Cabinet Office. Hopefully the complainers will have the courage of their convictions, and be willing to stand in the witness box; it would be interesting to know if it was instigated by a Labour appointed political adviser.
Nine anti-terrorist police were involved in the arrest. That the terrorism, or 'militancy', of recent years has originated almost exclusively from immigrants and their descendants is well-known, and if it's not it should be; this might be the first time where criticising immigration policy, or the lack thereof, might also be considered terrorism.
I am not a Tory; but I find myself personally frightened by what happened to Damian Green. Let's face it, they guy was doing his job - these charges can only be politically motivated, trumped up in order to quash debate. But if the authorities in command of both the formation and execution of policy can do this to him, what can they do to me? He's an MP who criticises immigration policy; I'm a nobody blogger who's done the same. For the first time in my life, I find myself asking - is my name on the list?
This arrest is actually quite an achievement. It has taken three generations of gutless politicians and five generations of stupid left-wing intellectuals to get us where we are. It is the fruit of the constant promotion of alien ideologies' virtues, and of many hands, some vocal, many more silent, having worked to make our functioning society into a defective and corrupt one like those they most admire. This been abetted by those gutless politicians' and stupid left-wing intellectuals' abuse of the British culture of mutual tolerance and reasonableness; we were always willing to listen to what they had to say, even when, like lunatics, there was no reasoning with them. For a century, those in command of British policy have not appreciated what has been in front of their noses. So well done, you gutless politicians and stupid left-wing intellectuals; you have your wish. Let us hope it isn't long before you too are purged like Damian Green.
This arrest is not 'Stalinesque' as David Cameron has said; it is Stalinist.

66 comments:

Letters From A Tory said...

I am still in complete disbelief about all this. Hopefully more details will emerge during the day, suffice to say that arresting MPs on the basis of exposing government incompetence doesn't strike me as a sign of a healthy democracy.

Kay Tie said...

When does Gordon Brown impose Ship Tax and rule by fiat?

Anonymous said...

"Less than a week after activists for a perfectly legal political party were arrested for distributing material"

That should read

"Less than a week after activists for a perfectly legal political party were arrested for distributing 'racist' material"

...which last time I checked is against the law.

Shaun said...

"...which last time I checked is against the law."

Anonymong

Yes but its perfectly legal to chant 'British Jobs for British Workers', no?

Blue Eyes said...

Why did it take nine officers to arrest him? I doubt he was likely to put up a fight. His house is hardly likely to be Waco, is it?

Council House Tory said...

If you read all the statements, the Met say no MINISTERIAL involvement. Gordon says no MINISTER knew. So who is senior, close to Gordon, but not a Minister and would be prepared to take the fall? Surely Ian Blair didn't do this alone?

Of course this was from Gordon, but he will try to protect himself. Is there anyone still loyal enough to take the flak for Gordon?

Anonymous said...

Who is surprised. This bunch of fascists will do what they need to to retain power.

Look at who governs us. Frankly, I wouldn't trust them with my car keys, let alone my liberty.

Corrupt, incompetent, self-serving, bullying, amoral tossers..

JuliaM said...

"Why did it take nine officers to arrest him? "

To send a message.

Thanks, Gordon. I think you've pretty much guaranteed the electorate will send YOU one at the next convenient opportunity...

Anonymous said...

"Yes but its perfectly legal to chant 'British Jobs for British Workers', no?"

...the issue was the leaflets they were distributing and the racist material therein.

The author of the post stated..

"Less than a week after activists for a perfectly legal political party were arrested for distributing material"

Which paints these 'activists' as martyrs to a cause. They may be members of a legal party but if they're distributing illegal material then being arrested is pretty much a guarantee and if any other party had done the same I'd expect the same response from the Police.

The arrest of Damion Green is a travesty. The attempt to portray the arrest of BNP activists as similar case is wrong.

John B said...

"that the terrorism, or 'militancy', of recent years has originated almost exclusively from immigrants and their descendants is well-known"

We're all the descendants of immigrants, you pillock.

Jiks said...

This is pretty horrifying isn't it?

Anti-Terror laws misused yet again, this time for recieving information that should have been public domain anyway.

As others have said elsewhere if there was ever a case for arrests for leaking (as opposed to being leaked to) it was the information passed by the government to Peston to bring our banks down.

Its almost like Labour are out to prove Guido's ZaNuLabour narrative when they do stuff like this but they may be either so detached from reality that this stunt looked like a bright idea ... or beleive the electorate are stupid enough to fall for it.

Thats assuming of course that the electorate will even be allowed to have a say, after all we have all received leaked information via the media so may be they can arrest us all ^^

Budgie said...

Anti terrorism laws to arrest an opposition MP? Nine police for a middle aged man who is clearly no terrrorist? This will run and run even if the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corp try to hide it.

Brown has really showed his hand. Arresting an opposition politician for opposing the government is openly stalinist. But it is a miscalculation; it is too soon.

NuLiebore has always been ruthless and vicious at hitting anyone who whistleblows but has previously limited itself to the little guys like Dr David Kelly.

McDoom will try to blame officials first (he always does), but follow the stink - Jacqui Boot Smith must accept responsibility in the end even if McDoom wriggles away.

Not a sheep said...

I am not generally a believer in conspiracy theories, preferring to believe in the cock-up theory of politics; however there is something not right about the way the UK is being governed by this Labour government. I am genuinely scared that something distinctly unpleasant is about to unfold in the UK and we may be closer to the suspension of democracy than ever before.

Kay Tie said...

"I am genuinely scared that something distinctly unpleasant is about to unfold in the UK and we may be closer to the suspension of democracy than ever before."

The New Model Army recruitment centres will be opening soon.

Assegai Mike said...

It must be serious if it flushed out David Davis MP, he does like to cherry-pick his liberty issues. There have been dozens of outrages since his by-election that appear to have passed his notice. He's been a big disappointment to us all.

John B said...

"I am genuinely scared that something distinctly unpleasant is about to unfold in the UK and we may be closer to the suspension of democracy than ever before."

Lolz. £500 to a pint says it won't - if it does, I'll pass you the money through the bars of the internment camp...

JuliaM said...

You seem pretty sure you'll be on the other side of those bars, don't you...?

Dave H. said...

John B "we're all the descendants of immigrants, you pillock."

Are we all first and second generation immigrants? I know of only one exception to this rule, and he was a simpleton guided, I would be willing to bet with you, by others fitting that description.

Sorry to rub your liberal nose in the shit of reality but if you can't see any connection between immigration and the current terrorist threat you're a self-deluding pillock.

The plain fact is that the communities emanating that threat have only become substantial in Britain recently. Anyone denying that has their head wedged in either the sand or their arse.

Rant over.

Chances are this arrest isn't a conspiracy and is nothing to do with other recent events, just by Occam's Razor. Still, a few more facts would be nice.

Antipholus Papps said...

I am not generally a believer in conspiracy theories

Oh, grow a brain for crying out loud! 'Conspiracy' is a specific term in criminal law. We have a government that has been engaging in openly criminal behaviour - for example 'fixing the intellegence and facts around the policy' was a conspiracy to commit the supreme international crime. When individuals are planning their crimes, they are 'conspiring'. Would you call an Appellant's lawyer a 'conspiracy theorist?'. Those two words are a dog-whistle to make you close your mind.

Anonymous said...

>we're all the descendants of immigrants, you pillock.<

Speak for yourself, fuckpig. Unless you subscribe to fantasy pseudo-history, there are many millions of Celtic people in this country whose ancestors were the earliest inhabitants of the British Isles.

John B = brainless fuckwit who randomly spews American liberal tags in the hope it'll make him look interesting.

Anonymous said...

Good to see that everyone's now arguing that politicians should be above the law.

Cleanthes said...

AP:

"'Conspiracy' is a specific term in criminal law. "

Oops. Conspiracy is precisely what Damian Green has been charged with...

John B said...

"there are many millions of Celtic people in this country"

Maybe in Kernow, West Wales and the Scottish Highlands. In Southern England we're mostly Saxons, with a bit of residual Celt and a sprinkling of Norman. Northern England and Lowland Scotland are the same, minus some of the Norman but plus a sizeable dose of Viking.

"Are we all first and second generation immigrants?"

No, but that wasn't Martin's claim, and there are some genuine questions about where you draw the line. Omar Khyam, who led the fertilizer bomb plot last year, was third-generation, for example.

In any case, Richard Reid's mother was white British (and his father was entirely absent, so blaming his Jamaican heritage seems like a stretch...).

Roger Thornhill said...

NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT 1984?

I must say not a peep from ANY MP when they got this on Nov5th. Now how do they feel?

9 Anti Terror Rozzers to arrest a middle aged MP? That is sending a message.

We need to keep a track of all the disingenuous statements made by this devious, cowardly bunch. They will be found out. Jaiquequack Smith said she did not know the time...ok, so was it 17:32 or 17:33? You get the picture. To think an MP was going to be arrested and the Met did NOT tell her in advance is just not credible, frankly, unless Mandy got the call and that oleaginous viper gave the nod.

This also has Slur Ian Blair's dabs all over it - the petulant little girl.


p.s. Omar Khyam: He was so pissed off, he bought the explosives...

JuliaM said...

"Good to see that everyone's now arguing that politicians should be above the law."

You'll be able to point to, and quote from, the comment claiming just that, then, won't you...?

Kay Tie said...

"I must say not a peep from ANY MP when they got this on Nov5th. Now how do they feel?"

Tribal. See how Paul Flynn MP responded to my question

http://paulflynnmp.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/11/future-classics.html#comment-140688228

Dave H. said...

"his father was entirely absent, so blaming his Jamaican heritage seems like a stretch"

Absent fathers are part of the Jamaican heritage. Many people are worried by this, not least Jamaicans.

In any case, if Reid Snr. had intended to be a caring parent the reason why he was in no position to be one hardly undermines the point about immigration. If you want social harmony, rapidly expanding communities from countries that are, by Britain's standards, violent (Jamaica) or fundamentalist (Pakistan) is an odd way of going about it.

I trust demographic experimeters even less than social engineers, because whilst the outcome of the latter is long-lasting the outcome of the former is permanent.

(barring unimaginable horrors, that is. I may have come across as a supporter of the Unspeakable Ones, and in a certain way I am -entirely because the other 3's failure to deal with this particular can of worms- but God forbid they ever get into any real power).

I stand corrected on Mr Kyam. It not prove my 'permanent' yet but 3 generations is a long time.

Anonymous said...

"'Conspiracy' is a specific term in criminal law. " Oops. Conspiracy is precisely what Damian Green has been charged with..."

Has he really. I thought he'd just been arrested. He's been charged has he - that'll be interesting - conspiring to hold a government to account..? Bloody hell - how dare an opposition MP do such a thing.

This government has overseen an unprescedented erosion in the civil liberties of the individual. Then they commit vast swathes of troops to an occupation of a country that even the British or Soviet Empires at their most powerful could not effectively control and instigated and supported an illegal war on a sovereign state, against massive public opposition, on the false premise of lies and hysteria.

On the immigrant point being linked to terrorism; it is interesting to note that when Enoch Powell made his 'Rivers of Blood' speech, this is exactly what he envisaged. Interestingly, he had been in India during partition. He saw the threat from a multicultural, multi-faith country with a strong Islamic mix at the time and he was driven by that experience. Look at Mumbai for a look at our streets in 20 years time.

Unfortunately for Britain, he alienated most of us because his rhetoric was so clearly rascist in tone. No-one can read parts of that speech and not see the rascist undertones, even if you allow for the standards of the time.

It's a pity, because otherwise he rightly foresaw the threat. Home-grown terrorists have been the dis-affected British youth of recent immigrants or immigrants themselves - FACT.

No-one is saying all immigrants are therefore terrorists... but if you ask many young, radicalised Muslims you will soon see where the threat is.

Sir Henry Morgan said...

Anonymong

Here's the pamphlet the Liverpool 13 were arrested for distributing. Tell us all - what's illegal about it?

http://bnp.org.uk/racism.pdf

And the leaflet the Burnley 3 were subject to dawn raids for distributing had already been described in court, by the judge, as "fair comment" (it was about the sources of the Heroin trade in Britain).

So mong - what's illegal about the "Racism cuts both ways" pamphlet?

Anonymous said...

It is ridiculous to accuse a leaflet which points out racial discrimination against the indigenous people of these islands of racism itself.

Is it racist to point out the many victims of anti-White violence, who have been ignored by the press and mainstream political parties? Is it racist to complain about the Muslim grooming and pimping of young non-Muslim girls?

I suggest that someone who accepts the characterization of this pamphlet as racist should read it, as linked to above: http://bnp.org.uk/racism.pdf.

Shaun said...

Roger Thornhill said...

"9 Anti Terror Rozzers to arrest a middle aged MP? That is sending a message."

Well we employ such well educated rocket scientists in our constabulary, they probably got the wrong end of the stick when told Green was in possession of 'dangerous documents'...

Anonymous said...

"Good to see that everyone's now arguing that politicians should be above the law."

No. People are arguing that the law both an ass and misapplied. Wouldn't matter if it were a binman nicked for possessing confidential material while emptying bins, frankly.

And finally...

Anonymous said...

""Yes but its perfectly legal to chant 'British Jobs for British Workers', no?"

...the issue was the leaflets they were distributing and the racist material therein."

No the issue is that they are BOTH racist statements but one is okay and indeed laudable when uttered by a fat, one-eyed, son-of-the-manse because he was a red rosette.

Druid said...

Unless you subscribe to fantasy pseudo-history, there are many millions of Celtic people in this country whose ancestors were the earliest inhabitants of the British Isles.

and where did the celts come from?

People always seem to think that history started one day and everything from then to now is based on the facts of that day!
The celts are what became of the Beaker people, who we think may have come to Britain from France. Prior to that, who knows where they came from!

We are all immigrants, but some of us have just been here longer!

Thon Brocket said...

Tea in the harbour. Now.

GH said...

http://www.warningtower.com/2008/11/28/uk-conservative-damian-green-arrested/

"In a democracy, opposition politicians have a duty to hold the Government to account. I was elected to the House of Commons precisely to do that and I certainly intend to continue doing so"

People need to wake up, quick.

haddock said...

John B, if, for example, the Normans came over in great numbers then some bugger would have nipped in and conquered their homeland; it was like that then. Consider India under British rule, there were no great numbers of British there, just enough to keep order and run the place..... and take the money.
The 'Mongrel English' tag is an insult by those who do not know their history, ice ages pushed people out.... and they went back with the retreating ice. Invasions were a replacement of the ruling elite and their camp followers... not large population movements.

Sean Jeating said...

At 10:09 am Shaun wrote:
'So who is senior, close to Gordon, but not a Minister and would be prepared to take the fall?'

What's about one of those folks who think they were 'leaders beyond authority'? :)

Anonymous said...

"For the first time in my life, I find myself asking - is my name on the list?"

your'e on my list DK

choose your lampost, I'll do the rest

signed
Gordon (and Mandy)

North Northwester said...

1933

Martin said...

JohnB

I see your comments regularly on this blog and Tim Worstall's - although they indicate that you are a creature of the extreme cultural left, one of the Frankfurt schools talking parrots come useful idiots (with the emphasis probably more on your idiocy than your usefulness), they generally add little to the sum of human wisdom.

You abrasively and aggressively style me a pillock - hmm, I'm a brain diseased cripple; you've just insulted a minority - for pointing out that the terrorism phenomenon of recent years is the work of immigrants and their descendants. There is a noun for this type of terrorism; it's 'jihad'. This is not a product of the native culture. It is imported. It comes with immigrants.

You repeat the bullshit trope that we are all descended from immigrants - this is what we in the west of Scotland call a fanny. I am of Irish extraction; my ancestors were born in Ireland when it was part of the United Kingdom. They were all British citizens by birth.

Moving swiftly on, you're good on your cultural Marxism, not so hot on your facts. Try this for size, written in 2006 -

"Last year David Miles, of the Institute of Archaeology in Oxford, published a book entitled ‘The Tribes of Britain’. Miles found that as much as 80% of your average British white man’s DNA derives from a small band of, presumably very relaxed, Ice Age nomads."

Where was this dangerous piece of crimethink published - The Devil's Kitchen!

http://devilskitchen.me.uk/2006/04/losing-working-class.html

John, no doubt you think you're hard, and as a creature of the left you probably have a hard time believing that people who don't think the way you do are dribbling morons whose feeding instructions are tatooed on their foreheads; but you're not, and they don't.

chiefofmen said...

king cnut must GO

Anonymous said...

fukin excellent!
best news in a long time!
one of the polilitical elite have been arrested.
bloggers are furious.
the media smells blood.

fukin' excellent!

maybe, just maybe, now, somebody will understand why mr average has an increasing sense of disquiet about this gradual but apparently unstoppable attack on civil liberties.

The bastards have overplayed their hand!
fukin' excellent!

this, at least should slow them down for a month or two.....who knows it might even be pivotal and slow the fukers down for years.

Anonymous said...

in the name of all that's holy:

who's running the MET!

is it some "designate" character who has suddenly had a rush of blood to the head?

is anybody in charge?

black hole sunset over a diamond sky said...

"I use the verb 'command' quite loosely"

Wicked man =)

"... has originated almost exclusively from immigrants and their descendants is well-known..."

Oooo, you controvert. How about this then: The fundamental theorem of mass immigration

Theorem: To accurately predict the effect of mass immigration into the UK by a partiular social/racial/ethnic group, find somewhere outside the UK where a (representative) reference population of that group is in the majority and where its customs and values are law. The net effect of mass immigration by the group of interest will be to transplant the observed state of affairs into UK towns and cities.

Proof: By inspection.

Notes: This theorem is probabalistic in nature, with predictive power directly proportional to the size of the reference population and the resulting (UK based) immigrant population. Predictive power is further enhanced by members of the UK based immigrant population living in close proximity to each other.

How's that for ushering in a new dawn in contemporary race relations?

USpace said...

.
Gordon Brown is clearly a fascist wannabe, and it would be even worse for Boris Johnson to have been privy to this. Hopefully most people will hear about this.
.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
arrest innocent MPs

for just doing their jobs
exposing failed policies

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
be a violent leftist

attack conservatives' homes
you brown-shirt NAZI FASCISTS

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe thinks
Marx was NOT an idiot

keep believing and HOPING
that communism WILL WORK

.
All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. Without freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.
.
Philosophy of Liberty Cartoon
.
Help Halt Terrorism Today!
.
USpace

:)
.

ej said...

I really think it's best not to engage at all with the "we are all immigrants" meme. It's simply designed to destabilize the self-confidence of the native population and make them feel that they have no more right to be here than a new arrival 10 mins off the plane from Addis Ababa.
And therefore,they have no legitimate standpoint from which to protest mass, unassimilable immigration.
At best, it transforms the discussion at hand into a pointless tangental argument about "whose ancesters have been here the longest."

Anonymous said...

anon 10:02:00
Should have read......
"factual material"
All 13 no case to answer.
sometimes, even under ZaNuLab, the truth is a valid defence.

Thortung said...

Jackboots and Gorgon have stated that they "had no prior knowledge" of the arrest. Typical Nulab no-denial denial. Taken literally, no-one can have "prior knowledge" of an actual event unless thay can travel through time.

This statement is factually correct even if they knew damned well that this was going to happen.

John B said...

"At best, it transforms the discussion at hand into a pointless tangental argument about "whose ancesters have been here the longest."

The thing is, any argument in favour of restricting immigration is - at heart - about "whose ancestors have been here the longest": humankind didn't originate in the UK.

On the genes question, the science is absolutely not settled: according to most serious scientists, DNA analysis shows that our genes are primarily Anglo-Saxon in origin. Maybe when genetic mapping is more advanced, we'll get some more conclusive answers.

(and the British in India story is irrelevant, as the Victorian British were running India as an economic colony whilst seeing Britain as home - whereas Anglo-Saxon and Norman immigration to Britain was nearly all permanent.)

John B said...

"you probably have a hard time believing that people who don't think the way you do are dribbling morons whose feeding instructions are tatooed on their foreheads"

Not people who don't think the way I do, merely people who publish relentless reams of gibbering shite, mostly centred around "let's kick out the darkies". Which would be an excellent summary of all your pieces here, and all your comments at Tim's.

Chris Close said...

Silencing opposition - the "politics" or fascism of New Labour?

Updated my blog.

This is obviously the Policing we can now expect - the sort that does what the Government tells it.

So expect that knock on your door if you dare oppose these pseudo nazis backed up by their own Stasi.
Chris Close

http://www.a-i-darlo.com/wordpress/

rory meakin said...

"people publish relentless reams of gibbering shite, mostly centred around "let's kick out the darkies". Which would be an excellent summary of all your pieces"

It must feel good to have your summary described as excellent, John.

TrooBrit said...

To "John B"

you said "On the genes question, the science is absolutely not settled: according to most serious scientists, DNA analysis shows that our genes are primarily Anglo-Saxon in origin."

This is nonsense, provide a link.

The actual analysis shows that most people in Britain, whether South or North, have genes that are more closely related to the Catalans, the genes having arrived in the UK in palaeolithic times when the UK was joined to the European continental land-mass.

This is irrelevant anyway. As someone else pointed out, your argument implies that some immigrant who has just set foot in the UK 5 minutes ago, has has much right to be here as someone whose family haved lived here for hundreds of years.

Fool.

Martin said...

JohnB,

You wally - you utter, utter wally.

Actually read that link I provided above, the opne to 'Losing the Working Class', and see if that could be characterised in the way you have described.

Nice try at denouncing me - but again, factually threadbare.

JuliaM said...

I rarely see eye to eye with Martin's viewpoint, but to describe it, in any way as being "let's kick out the darkies" is so thoroughly inaccurate as to make me wonder if you are thinking of some other 'Martin'.

This is almost as embarrassing for you as when you showed up on the 'Pub Philosopher' post on the girl viciously gang-raped to claim that we shouldn't be too hasty condemning it, because she was probably part of the gang who 'had it coming' for some transgression...

You never learn, do you..?

black hole sunset over a diamond sky said...

"I really think it's best not to engage at all with the "we are all immigrants" meme."

Well put.

The native population of Britain is quite diverse, both genetically and culturally, with a long history of interaction and mixing with neighboring populations (particularly mainland Europe). However, the British population is also quite distinct (in the previously mentioned sense) from other European populations and blatantly so when compared to the groups that constitute the bulk of recent mass immigration into the UK.

When Brits (of whatever ethnic herritage, be it Celt, Saxon, Norman, Indian, Italian etc.) talk about "being British", they are refering to a shared, or sincerely adopted, cultural history of secular democracy, world class technological and societal development, very long periods of peaceful coexistence, industrialisation, western standards of living, separation of sewage from drinking water etc. Not some "angels on a pinhead" argument about this or that level of measured genetic similarity; all humans are descended from sea sponges, if that's any help.

The likes of John B. are (if I understand his argument) at single-minded pains to ignore, downplay or even deny the considerable achievement that Britain, as a "going concern", represents. The vast majority of recent imports have singularly failed to construct a decent existence for themselves in their country of origin (hence their eagerness/desperation to come in the first place). In most cases, there appears to be no geographical or geological reason for this, their point of origin (subject to appropriate administration and planning) could support a comfortable, more western, standard of living.

It doesn't even seem appropriate to make direct comparisons between the level of social and technological sophistication demonstrated by recent immigrant groups and previous stages in Britain's own developmental history either. Only by acknowledging that most of the recent immigrant groups lack the precocious seeds of enlightened moderation that ultimately came to define modern British culture can such we begin to realistically make such comparisons. And then, the obvious conclusions are just depressing.

For the record, I am against mass immigration, not for mass deportation. The former can be achieved in a relatively orderly and civilised manner (application forms, interviews etc), the latter is the germ of an autocracy.

Old Holborn said...

Announced Today by the BBC

Alan Milburn to set up "Civilian Security Force" using military trainers, civil servants, police officers, judges and other logistical staff.

Beware, The State is now arming itself against it's own citizens

LINK

Deogolwulf said...

"humankind didn't originate in the UK."

"whereas Anglo-Saxon and Norman immigration to Britain was nearly all permanent."

These rather sum up your confusion, JohnB.

Perhaps, first of all, it should be pointed out to you that the UK did not exist at the dawn of humanity; that England, let alone Britain, did not exist when the Anglo-Saxons invaded these islands; and that Britain did not exist when the Normans invaded England; and that, most importantly, it is impossible to have immigration to countries that do not exist. (Perhaps it needs to be pointed out that the word "immigration" by its prefix implies migration into something, rather than just movement from one point in space to another; that that something is a socio-political concept and not a mere piece of earth; and that your argument, my presuming you have one, depends on an equivocation between political and geographical concepts.) The mere lump of matter that we name the British Isles is just that: matter. It attains no status as anything else except by what we think of it. Its subdivision into nations or political entities is entirely in the human mind. When we talk of immigration, we talk of entry into a nation, a society, or a political entity. The Anglo-Saxons were not immigrants to an England which somehow magically existed apart from them; they were its creators. Nor were they immigrants to a Britain that would not exist until long after they had arrived. Similarly, it might surprise you to hear that Scotland did not exist before the Scots invaded from Ireland, and that China did not exist before there were people calling themselves Chinese, and so on.

It is, I hope you are aware, utter nonsense to speak of the English being immigrants to England, the Scots being immigrants to Scotland, the Welsh being immigrants to Wales, the Irish being immigrants to Ireland, the Indians being immigrants to India, and so on -- all of which are not mere pieces of earth, but ethnic, social, or political entities.

Bessie said...

John B: On the genes question, the science is absolutely not settled: according to most serious scientists, DNA analysis shows that our genes are primarily Anglo-Saxon in origin.

Your link is to a series of papers by Mark Thomas and colleagues at UCL. Unfortunately, their interpretations suggest that their background reading has not progressed far beyond "1066 and All That". They may be serious scientists but they are not serious historians.

For a brief analysis, see Stephen Oppenheimer's article
in Prospect. You may balk at his controversial theories on language (as a linguist, I find them intriguing). However, he does at least read the primary sources.

North Northwester said...

Off-topic I know, but here's a good-hearted, truth-telling, right-minded whistle-blowing blogger in deep trouble. Please read it – it may be one of the last.

http://tomisswithlove.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-days-are-numbered.html


In this week of all weeks, when an MP was arrested for trying to expose the government’s dishonesty and incompetence you might like to go over and encourage her and stick it to the people in charge.
Our shared foes.

John B said...

"This is nonsense, provide a link."

Try clicking, err, the fucking link that I provided in the previous sentence. You idiot.

It is, I hope you are aware, utter nonsense to speak of the English being immigrants to England, the Scots being immigrants to Scotland, the Welsh being immigrants to Wales

Hmm. The white Americans being immigrants to America? At what point do you have to turn up and top the locals to be 'the current lot'?

When Brits (of whatever ethnic herritage, be it Celt, Saxon, Norman, Indian, Italian etc.) talk about "being British", they are refering to a shared, or sincerely adopted, cultural history of secular democracy, world class technological and societal development, very long periods of peaceful coexistence, industrialisation, western standards of living, separation of sewage from drinking water etc

Aye, agreed 100%. And the non-white Brits that I know, whether first, second, third or tenth generation, fit that set of standards significantly better than the ropey scummers who'd like to kick them all out (see: proportion of British Asians with degrees vs portion of BNPites with degrees...)

They may be serious scientists but they are not serious historians

Hmm. I'm inclined to believe their DNA analysis, which mysteriously aligns with the historical narrative. Whilst minority views like "we're all Celts who've been here 10,000 years" may be justifiable if the relevant genetic evidence shows up, believing the generally accepted and scientifically supported viewpoint is hardly insane in the meantime.

John B said...

This is almost as embarrassing for you as when you showed up on the 'Pub Philosopher' post on the girl viciously gang-raped to claim that we shouldn't be too hasty condemning it, because she was probably part of the gang who 'had it coming' for some transgression...

What, being right about our historical and genetic heritage on a forum of demented bigots is supposed to make me embarrassed? Like the ridiculous lies you made up in the rape case, this is precisely the sort of toss that makes me consider giving up non-anonymous (nonymous?) blogging.

Apologies to people who aren't JuliaM, but for the avoidance of doubt - the facts on that case were a) idiots in blogland and tabloidland were suggesting the horrible chemical torture the gang applied to the girl was some kind of CSI-inspired scheme to evade DNA detection; b) doing so wouldn't actually avoid DNA detection; c) it's common in gangs to punish women who're perceived as having betrayed them by rape *and* torture.

Not exculpation of the evil bastards who did it and will hopefully go to jail for a very long time (actually, has anyone followed the progress of that case?), just 'shut the fuck up with your ridiculous urban myths about "rapists are now using caustic soda to eradicate the DNA", cos they're nonsense'.

Carter said...

"John B said..

We're all the descendants of immigrants, you pillock."

No we're not. 75% of the of the British can trace their mitochondrial DNA back to the original inhabitants of this island.

John B said...

I'm fairly sure, based on that comment, that you don't know what "mitochondrial' means.

(clue: if I'm technically Jewish, but my dad, my mum's dad, my maternal grandmother's dad, and everyone else outside of the direct maternal line for 100 generations, isn't, then my mitochondrial DNA will be 100% Semitic, but my actual, personal, affecting-who-I-am-and-what-I'm-lie DNA will be 99% gentile...)

Ginro said...

I'm fairly sure, based on that comment, that you don't know what "mitochondrial' means.

Whether he does or doesn't is another matter, but I most certainly do. Fed up of reading this bull about DNA by people that don't know much about it themselves and I am totally in agreement with Bessie here.

I'm inclined to believe their DNA analysis, which mysteriously aligns with the historical narrative.

Now those are the words of someone that doesn't understand the subject matter.

In 2002 Dr Thomas claimed that the genetic evidence proved that the Anglo-Saxons had invaded in massive numbers who then went on a rampage of 'ethnic cleansing'.

In 2006 the same Dr Thomas claimed that the same genetic evidence proved the Anglo-Saxons had arrived in small numbers and had practiced 'racist apartheid'.

Well what's it to be Dr Thomas? You can't have it both ways, although some clearly believe they can.

His name is a possible give-away. I say 'possible' as the surname Thomas is probably Welsh. So do we detect a touch of bias here? Your guess is as good as mine, but there are a few facts pertinent to the subject in hand.

Dr Thomas is a Johnny-come-lately in the field of bio-molecular archaeology. At the time he made his evaluations he had little or no experience in history, nor archaeology. He needed to make his name so to speak.

Regardless of which picture is accepted concerning the source populations of Europe there are extensive and largely unanswerable questions apropos the mutation rates of mtDNA and Y-chromosome groups. This is very much an unquantifiable area because of all the variables which can affect the redevelopment and behaviour of mutation rates. These factors alone substantially reduce the probability of real accuracy when trying to trace population histories. It is therefore essential that a high degree of caution is observed when making assumptions (and they are always assumptions). The DNA of a particular group could have been swallowed by unknown processes, gene flow could have been far less than hypothesised, mechanisms might be operating which preferentially select particular lines. In addition, marker techniques are superior at finding relationships between cognate groups than dating them due to error size (some molecular clocks are faster than others and the variability can be due to internal as well as external factors being different for different parts of the nucleotide sequence), some mutations are more likely than others, they may happen more than once, they may even revert to original formats and lastly over-representation by same-sex families can result in the loss of key markers.

Let's not also forget that many of these evaluations tend not to take into account, when based upon modern genetic markers, of the effects of things like the Black Death which decimated communities losing genetic material forever. Then there is the Norman invasion itself of which during the first twenty years or so approximately 300,000 men, women, and children were slaughtered for one reason or another. Considering the size of England's population at the time, and again the closeness of communities, that would have a devastating impact on future genetic information.

Then there is also the nature of genetic testing, its expense, and its time-consuming nature. For those very reasons sample studies have to be small, and this means that results have to be supplemented by huge amounts of assumption.

Speculative expressions regarding genetic markers are very common because possible errors on genetic markers are large. And this applies to a great extent where predictions are based largely on genetic evidence alone. Additionally, one correct analysis does not ensure that all future analyses will also be correct.

And then, and most importantly, there is the fact that Dr Thomas used the dreaded 'computer modelling' system to 'calculate' his answers. For a run-down on the deficiences of that method I will leave you in the hands of a computer analyst, so go and read what he has to say here - Computer Modelling

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