Sunday, September 14, 2008

The Libertarian Party moves...

Hmmm: drink had been taken and that posted worded a little strongly.

The point that I was trying to make is that under the libertarian ideal, you can live your life in the way that you see fit. If you want to live in a little socialist enclave, for instance, that's fine (as long as everyone is doing so voluntarily).

Any other system is effectively forcing your personal morality onto others, backed up by the coercive power of the state. Or, as some might put it, enforcing your beliefs on others at the barrel of a gun.

And it is this that has led, inexorably, to this constant state interference in our lives, the so-called nanny-state. Because if it is "right" to force your beliefs to the extent of stealing the fruits of people's labour to prop up your beliefs, then you have already taken the biggest step: telling them how they should live the rest of their lives—what their weight should be, how they should talk, what their decisions should be—are just little incremental steps.

That is what we are all arguing about here. Whether you are Tory, Liberal or Labour, the first big step is believing that your views are so correct that they should be forced on everyone else.

That really isn't a morally acceptable position, as far as I am concerned.

That is why I'm a libertarian: because I don't believe that the way that I choose to live my life should be forced onto everyone else.

And I tend to get... er... excited about it because I cannot understand why that is such a difficult concept for people to understand.

UPDATE: The Nameless One puts the argument across in the temperate and reasonable fashion that I should have employed...

50 comments:

Robin said...

With an invitation like that how could anyone refuse to join ?

Ahem, just one question, do you think your morals are on the same level as Socialists ?

Anonymous said...

This "non-aggression" stuff is rubbish.

Libertarianism = using the FORCE of the police, courts, prisons etc. to impose a particular view of how resources should be distributed on everyone else. In this case, the principle is: it depends on whose cunt you popped out of. Nice.

Devil's Kitchen said...

Robin,

"Ahem, just one question, do you think your morals are on the same level as Socialists ?"

It doesn't matter: unlike socialists, we will not force you to live by our morals.

DK

Devil's Kitchen said...

Anon,

You are a moron. Go home.

DK

Anonymous said...

You know, being Libertarian and Tory aren't mutually exclusive.

The main reason I couldn't join the Libertarians is the health policy. They support an insurance based system, but what of those that cannot afford insurance?

And while a private enterprise competing freely is a great idea, it requires at least some form of regulation, otherwise we'll see the same problem as in America, families being denied medical care for the most arbitrary technicalities.

That means you've effectively taken control of the health services from a democratically elected government and given it to an undemocratic lot of shareholders who have power only because they can afford it.

nightjack said...

Do you accept fellow travelers?

Devil's Kitchen said...

"The main reason I couldn't join the Libertarians is the health policy. They support an insurance based system, but what of those that cannot afford insurance?"

Look to Switzerland.

"Do you accept fellow travelers?"

Of course.

DK

Anonymous said...

I may be wrong, but isn't the Swiss system basically one where if you cannot afford health insurance the state provides it?

If so, is this not essentially what we have now? Except it's open to all, not just the poor, while those who can afford it can have private care if they so wish.

Rumbold said...

I would love to see one of the three main (socialist) parties use this recruiting line.

At least we libertarians can never be accused of being boring.

Anonymous said...

Dear Chris,

You sir are the moron. There are many good things to be said for libertarianism, but that it avoids imposing any particular morality on anyone else is not one of them.

Regards,
Anon.

Sam Tarran said...

The main reason I couldn't join the Libertarians is the health policy. They support an insurance based system, but what of those that cannot afford insurance?

Well, I assume the policy of moreorless dismantling the NHS would mean an end to at least the best part of NI contributions, which coupled with the other tax cuts I assume the Libertarians also want to make (after balancing the books), would make people more able to afford their own insurance schemes.

I'm not some sort of spokesman for LPUK, I'm just guessing.

Dear Chris,

You sir are the moron. There are many good things to be said for libertarianism, but that it avoids imposing any particular morality on anyone else is not one of them.


Why not? Do you enjoy having a "particular morality" imposed on you?

Anonymous said...

C'mon, Devil. Tell us what you really think.

the a&e charge nurse said...

I may be wrong Devil, but I suspect "morality" is just about the earliest casualty amongst those intent on climbing the greasy political pole ?

Personally, I agree with the likes of Dawkins and John Gray that all "isms" [or prostelysing about social organisation] is ultimately self defeating, because of evolutionary principles that govern ALL organic matter [thus undermining the conceit that we can ever be in control of our own destiny].

Of course, humans have always been rather fond of developing certain myths and narratives - but as far as I can tell, party politics is little more than the school play ground writ large amongst a group of attention seekers.

I can't figure out why somebody with your creative energy would want to be part of such a disreputable club ?

knirirr said...

If you are not with us, then you are scum.

By "with you" do you mean a paid-up party member? What if we aren't members but would vote for your candidates? Are we still scum then? I hope not.

Daily Referendum said...

Has some nutter hacked into your blog? You may be pissed off with that arse Montgomerie from conhome and the idiots that run politicshome, but please don't tar us all with the same brush.

I hope you are pissed, otherwise you have some serious snags.

Panopticon Britain said...

I disagree; I want to print this post out, give it a nice frame and hang it on the wall, it's that damn awesome.

Tito said...

...Oh dear Chris,

If I was still a member of the party this post would have prompted me to leave.

Thud said...

Scum and proud of it.

Wyrdtimes said...

All this die slowly/quickly stuff.

Course it's your absolute right to say whatever you damn well like about whoever you like but you are coming over like a complete and utter retard.

And I say that as someone who did consider joining the LP. But I wouldn't join anything that was run by a grown man who talks like a teenager.

Great blog btw - but fucking grow up.

Frederick Davies said...

That has to be one of the more "original" party slogans I have ever seen:

Join us or fuck off, you scum!

I don't think it is going to be very successful, but hey, what do I know?

Obnoxio The Clown said...

Step away from the bottle, Mister Devil. :o)

no longer anonymous said...

Last time I looked the LP backed school vouchers. This would result in state funding for private schools and therefore undermine their independence. The purist libertarian position on education is to privatise the schools and cease all state funding whether directly or by voucher.

fewqwer said...

Natural-born libertarians will never gain power - they just don't have it in their genes, as DK amply demonstrates with this post. A capital-L Libertarian who found himself in power would perhaps discover - to his horror - that he is, in fact, a totalitarian at heart, wishing to remake society to conform to his own vision of it, suppressing all dissent with escalating brutality-by-proxy.

It is self-delusion to believe that you carry a complete social and economic model around in your own head against which any conceivable policy can be evaluated. There is always something you didn't think of, especially if you're not even particularly expert in the (vast) subject matter.

This is a major beef I have with political ideologues of all stripes: they always have an answer for everything.

In contrast, science does not offer the truth, it offers a method for eliminating falsehood: a far more modest claim.

fewqwer said...

Heh, I just discovered that I'm in at least partial agreement with a&e nurse. Fuck :(

Carl Richardson said...

Here’s a good documentary exploring the US system and some alternatives to insurances based healthcare: 20/20 Sick in America: Whose Body is it Anyway?

Not Quite Hayek said...

" The Libertarian Party moves...
... and we are moving on, ladies and gentlemen; yes we are."

Really? How so? More blog posts on the LPUK site?

I was ready to support LPUK and get involved, but seeing as I'm still three months waiting on a membership query, it's pretty clear that LPUK is content exactly where it is- not campaigning, not selecting candidates and not taking on prospective grassroots activists.

You keep on saying "join us", but why? To affirm my beliefs?

The "fuck you for not seeing things my way" approach is a bit of a turn off, too. A communications director who is intent on upsetting friends and allies doesn't bode well for a party that doesn't have any credibility to begin with.

Instead of calling other libertarians "cunts", why don't you ask them what it is that would encourage them to join the party? Politics isn't black and white and you know it, and I suspect you actually do understand why some libertarians end up in the Conservative Party, just as you ended up in UKIP, alongside fellow libertarians and authoritarian statists.

It's pretty sad that things have ended up this way- no doubt you'll tell me that I'm a cunt and I can go fuck myself up the arse with a broken glass bottle on the end of a Black and Decker drill. It is, after all, the libertarian way.

Anonymous said...

Where's the LPUK moving on from?

Your last substantial political act was to put forward Ian Parker-Joseph (who believes that 9/11 and 7/7 were inside jobs) up as a candidate for Henley.

And then to withdraw him when you realised that didn't have any resources (you know, things like people or money) to actually mount a campaign because you spend all your time on the internet writing ranting blog posts.

Just like this one.

xelent said...

As a market anarchist.. I regrettably see no sense in a libertarian candidature.. As removing govt entirely, is my venture..

However, I do applaud your zeal..

xelent said...

sorry..my last comment was a tad patronising..

excuse me..

Anonymous said...

Contradiction in your post Mr. DK :

"If you believe that you have some kind of moral superiority over everyone else [...] you are a totalitarian cunt."

And a few paragraphs later:

"Our morality is right because we allow you to live your life as you want. Nothing else allows that."

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, you're saying that anyone who disagrees with your morality is wrong.. I'm not sure what to say, except a mild wtf (and also that you are, by your logic, a t.c.).

A brief summary of the libertarian position would be very welcome.
And many thanks for the excellent and entertaining blog.

Anonymous said...

I've got a lot of sympathy for the libertarian viewpoint, but it's this sort of adolescent rant which makes me think of a middle class teenager who has painted his bedroom walls black and is having hormonal problems.

Do you call people cunts in the real world DK ? where I live that sort of language is a prelude to someone getting their arse kicked.

DOH! said...

Love the blog, but the whole 'your either with us or against us' thing smacks of a sixth form rebellion. Whilst i admire the Libertarian stance on many things, i do have differing views on certain aspects like health care, law and order etc so to be told i am a cunt just, because i have a differing point of view is a tad much. Libertarianism is by its very nature typified by its respect for the individual? but not in this case?

Maybe a little less drinky poos and a litlle more thinking next time

Chris Snowdon said...

What's going on? Which post are you all talking about? I want to be offended too!

Letters From A Tory said...

Branding all Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems as non-libertarians shows how little you understand these (actual) political parties.

Many Conservatives I know describe themselves as libertarians and the Conservatives' flagship policies in areas such as education are incredibly liberal by taking power away from the state and give it to the individual.

Roger Thornhill said...

1. Education - a) to think any party can end funding overnight is real idealism divorced from reality. b) IMHO as long as kids are improving their literacy and numeracy skills, the rest is about parental choice, otherwise it does become political, as it is now.
2. Heath. So many better ways than the current Stalinist monopoly. No, insurance safety net is nothing like the NHS.
3. What post is everyone on about? As a Libertaria I have no issue with someone being a moonbat as long as they do not impose their moonbattery upon me/make me pay, and I think that goes for all members of the LPUK, AFAICT.

Roger Thornhill said...

p.s. LfaT, the Conservative idea is a sham. It is not real vouchers, as authorities have to beg "permission" to be "allowed" to set up new schools. Hardly freedom from state control.

pagar said...

Hey Devil

I take it you have removed the offending post.

If you put it back I promise I'll get pissed before I comment.

How's that?

Wearysider said...

Shit, Con-home only edited a title and snipped an article short! ;-)

Indeed 'You've got to laugh... ' and accept that drunken ramblings maybe should be confined to the pub and the walk home.

Anonymous said...

In vino veritas ?

The original blog post seems to be full of hypocritical totalitarian evil of the "you are either a True Believer or you are scum and should be killed" variety.

Is this the true face of the UK Libertarian Party ?


===============

The Libertarian Party moves... : The Devil's Kitchen

... and we are moving on, ladies and gentlemen; yes we are. We take with us those who realise that the Tories will be, substantially, no better than NuLabour (no matter what the alien-voters might say).

We have sorted out some stuff, and now the party is ready to get jiggy with it. Basically you are with us, or you believe that socialism is great.

Because here is the moral argument, ladies and gents: if you believe that your morals are superior to everyone else's, then carry on.

If you believe that your morals are no better than anyone else's, then you are a libertarian and should join us.

If you believe that you have some kind of moral superiority over everyone else, then go and join another party; but don't ever argue that you are a humanist: you are a totalitarian cunt.

And the vast majority of you in the blogosphere are precisely that type of cunt. For those who are not, the Libertarian Party is here and—you know what?—it is now going to start making waves.

The rest of you—you who view humanity as your slaves (socialists and Tories)—you are all the worst type of bastard and I hope that you die, quickly but painfully.

You are scum.

Our morality is right because we allow you to live your life as you want. Nothing else allows that. And I really hate you.

No, really: you are scum.

UPDATE: some of you are going to say that we should protect the stupid, because they do not understand the consequences. You believe that your morality trumps theirs. Fuck you: you are scum.

Some of you are going to attempt to bring up various nefarious practices, e.g. dentistry. You think that you know better than everyone else. You, too, are scum.

If you believe that the human race needs your guidance, then why not declare yourself dictator and have done with it? Because, what you are saying is that you—you—know better than anyone else what their aim in life should be.

And that makes you a totalitarian. You may not start killing Jews just yet, but—hey—cripples are a bit of a gene-pool facer, eh?

Either yhou are a libertarian or you are totalitarian: it's time to declare your affinity. If you are a stinking authoritarian, bugger off and die. If you are a libertarian, you know where to sign up...

If you are not with us, then you are scum. It's really simple, Scum, get on with it. You scum. Just declare yourselves: say, "I know better than you" and let's have done with this pussy-footing around.

Just say that so that we libertarians can deride you for the scum of humanity that you are. Fuck you: may you die slowly and painfully.

Robin said...

Not quite sure about the morals thesis here DK (leaving aside the calls for death to the Great Satan Gordon Brown, infidels like socialists die,I am the prophet peace be upon me ).
Is it we are all with original sin, and some stay there by voting Labour ?
What about criminals ?Same level of morals ?

Roger Thornhill said...

Well, it is not quite how I would put it, but, at the core, it is saying alot of people need to admit to themselves as being an authoritarian, or if (hopefully) they are not, to stop kidding themselves by remaining "loyal" to the ever more authoritarian LibLabCon parties.

Saying you are a "Libertarian Conservative" does not really work, for parties are all-or-nothing affairs, really. Cameron will not lead his party or country in a Libertarian fashion. Neither will Cleggasaurus, as the LDLs have been realising, I hear.

fraggle said...

Hehehe---Dont you just love that morning after sinking feeling---could have been worse tho...or did you wake up with an ugly lady from the Liebour party? I havent seen Harperson on the telly today!!!!!No surely you didnt!!!!!

Chris Snowdon said...

This has certainly whetted my appetite for the first LPUK party political broadcast.

You have to admit that 'Fuck you: may you die slowly and painfully' is a better slogan than 'Are you thinking what we're thinking?'

Anonymous said...

Commenting on the updated post:

"That is what we are all arguing about here. Whether you are Tory, Liberal or Labour, the first big step is believing that your views are so correct that they should be forced on everyone else.

That really isn't a morally acceptable position, as far as I am concerned."

I don't see the evidence, in my experience, that people who vote Tory, Liberal and to a lesser extent Labour, believe that their views are "so correct" that they should be forced upon everyone else. This seems like a sweeping exaggeration, and also perhaps more accurately describes DK's strongly-held views.

I understand that what he is passionately advocating is a framework, as it were, within which diverse behaviours are tolerated. But isn't it the case that this framework is already mostly in place in Britain, although perhaps not quite with the same legal soundness as it is in the US ? Apart from political correctness and petty bureaucratic meddling, it seems to me that in this country people are already free to live and think as they wish.

(I'm not saying that things can't be improved, but an awful lot has already been achieved).

I'm still amazed by the rage of the initial post - "everyone who doesn't agree with my libertarian position is totalitarian scum, and also, surprisingly, a cunt". Heh, but in reality, I am a bit disturbed by it.

I agree on the whole with libertarian ideas, but that post wasn't the best advert for the LP.

Devil's Kitchen said...

Which is why I took it down. The moral is that one should not post having been drinking.

However, the rage comes from talking to people who just don't get it: they really don't.

Seriously, the number of people who object to "the destruction of our civil liberties" but actually support the destruction of those liberties that they personally don't like, e.g. drinking on the Tube, is extraordinary. And worrying.

Why should that not make me angry? I violently loathe hypocrisy in our politicians: why should my anger be any less when I encounter wilful hypocrisy in people who aren't politicians?

And you really shouldn't be surprised that something with such anger should appear at The Kitchen which is primarily a cathartic vehicle.

I took the post down because it was, frankly, not a good post and just came across as angry and bitter, without communicating why I felt that.

That someone should choose to resurrect was not my decision.

DK

V said...

I got more sense from the comments than I did from the post!!

As I see it - DK, you could be a liability if the party had any chance of winning anything!

The truth of the matter is that without politics, the world would happily move on without a care in the world. To me, the removal of politics from the day to day living of the common man is the goal of the LPUK.

The answer is piano wire.
You know it.
I know it.
the crazy 646 know it.
LPUK should make it happen!

Stran said...

DK,

Do you defend anarchy?

If no, How can you live in a society that lives under your ideal?

Best Regards,

Stran

John Pickworth said...

Devil's Kitchen said...

"I took the post down because it was, frankly, not a good post and just came across as angry and bitter, without communicating why I felt that."

I think it captured perfectly how you felt... but I agree this morning's sanitised version is a much better expression of your views.

DK, I was one of those who applauded the new Mayor's ban on Tube drinking... not to piss off the sane (mostly) like your good self but because the sight of roudy youths getting sloshed on cheap booze actually frightens some of us. Genetically I'm opposed to yet more rules and regulations, preferring instead to see the existing ones enforced fairly. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect society (and we might argue that such a society could never exist) so we'll always have situations where we have to surrender a little of our personal freedom for the greater good - example playing loud music at 4am etc.

Having said that, I believe we've strayed far far too much into the realm of the totalitarian society... frighteningly so and to the point where I fear the current Government much more than terrorists, hoodies or pantomime paedophiles. We need not only an immediate halt to such silliness but urgently have to find a way to reverse much of it too. I can live with an alcohol ban (and seriously I hope its just a temporary one) while we tackle some of the bigger issues but you have more friends here of all political colours DK than you realise... even if sometimes we might not sympathise with every little detail. But of course its your blog and you have every right to campaign for an issue that's important to you.

I'm fairly sure I'll never live to see my perfect version of society and I doubt you'll ever see yours. The trick though is to produce one that gives the maximum freedoms to the maximum numbers of people. On that, you have my total support and continued avid readership.

John.

Old Holborn said...

You forgot to mention that you get a keyring/bottle opener and a lapel badge when you join the LPUK.

When's our AGM? I fancy a good piss up

Sam Tarran said...

"Which is why I took it down. The moral is that one should not post having been drinking.

Odd, I actually write better when I've had a drink or two. At least two of my English coursework essays were written whilst under the influence of alcohol, and came back with full marks. Though, maybe that's more a reflection of the 'dumbing down' of the system than the enlightening properties of alcohol.