Saturday, October 20, 2007

The Tories on the Treaty

Whilst much has been made of the opprobrium heaped upon Brown and his Batshit fag, what is the position of the Tories in all of this? Surely they will gamely stand up to this piece of shit?

Um, well, call me cynical but it doesn't look like it.
Less than three weeks ago, on the eve of his Party conference, it was no less than the Great Leader himself who told us via the Today programme that, "we promise a referendum... And that promise is good whenever Gordon Brown decides to hold this election."

Yesterday morning, however, we got his sidekick—part-time shadow foreign secretary William Hague—on the same programme, challenged directly on whether, in the next Tory manifesto, he will promise to repeal this treaty if it is ratified. In response, one might have expected him to echo his leader but, instead, we get this decidedly equivocal exchange:
WH: Well, that depe... Let's think first of all... There's several "ifs" there really. Is this going to go through Parliament in this form? Are we going to fail to get a referendum? And then is the general election going to be beyond the point—which is what I think what you are referring to—when the treaty has been ratified. Now that is something that we will have to decide over the coming months, what is the position after the treaty has been ratified, if it is ratified. We would like to focus people’s minds on the fact that it is still possible to force the government to give a referendum and that is what we will be campaigning for over the coming months.

INT: How is it though, because even when it goes though Parliament, you're unlikely to... unless the Liberal Democrats come in with you, you won't defeat the government.

WH: That is right.

INT: ... and the Liberal Democrats, given the likely leaders, Nick Clegg or Chris Hulme, they’re not going to vote with you.

WH: Well, of course, they ought to because they also have a commitment to a referendum. And I can tell you that those Lib-Dem MPs, and those...

INT: The reality is, Mr Hague that they won't, so the chances of you defeating this in Parliament are zero, aren’t they?

WH: Well, we are going to work with people across other parties, of course, to make the best possible case for this in Parliament. The case is very strong and we'll work to get the most votes on this in either House of Parliament. And you're quite right that if the treaty is ratified by this and all other countries, well then we'll all have to decide what we're going to do about this in the future. But we will decide about that in due course. That is one of the future arguments on this subject. It's not one of the arguments at issue at the moment.

So, now we know. Hague and the Tories will fight for a referendum, but Hague does not expect to win one. And afterwards, "we'll all have to decide what we're going to do about this in the future."

One could be forgiven, on this basis, for thinking that Cameron's initial promise was no more substantial than any other promise given by a politician—i.e., not at all—and that the Tories, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, will accept the treaty once it is ratified.

And why should they not? The Conservatives have never really been EUsceptic whilst in government, from the day that they sold our sovereignty in 1972, through to the Single European Act and the Maastricht Treaty.

I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs. I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking, etc. etc.


Andrew Ian Dodge said...

Shall I be there first to mention the EPP fiasco?

Shug Niggurath said...

This way the Tories get to tell us that they wanted to get out of this shambles but it was all Labour's fault.

The classic 'it wisnae me' excuse as used by many a politician over the years.

Mark Wadsworth said...

The Tories'?

It's simple, DK.

Either an MP
1) states quite clearly "Unless this Reform Treaty has been approved by a referendum, I will vote against ratifying it in the House of Commons" OR
2) he or she is a devious lying fuck.

woman on a raft said...

For info:

The 1975 referendum leaflet is here:

Newmania said...

This is such a lot of crap , its not even a good solid cow pat it the runny thin piss crap that is the prelude to death by dysentery. ( No offence I `m just joining in …)The difference between the Conservative Party and the gnats that buzz about its nose and anus is that they have to appeal to a broad cross section of people and especially moderate centre swing voters . I am confident that William Hague ,of all people ,would have us out or at least so semi detached it was the same thing ( bilateral agreements would be required of course). Your problem is not that you have not convinced the Conservative Party, it is that the country does not want to leave the EU and shrieking from the sidelines is unlikely to move this moderate opinion .It is infinitely better done from power where battles can soon be established in Salmon style . This is how real politics works , occupy the centre and move it .
In the meantime expecting the Conservative Party to abandon its tactical advantage is weimarish posturing from the Anti Dave Spart school of doctrinal irrelevance
What you always get wrong when you moan and groan about imagined sleights to our national independence is that they are carried on with the continued support of the majority of the British electorate . In other words as we stand the system is working quite nicely . It cannot be misrepresented as an elitist plot including the Conservatives.. Quite clearly Hague is not going to hand over , for no reason the votes of everyone the slightest bit nervous about the idea of leaving at this stage . Residual Conservative concerns might be allayed by UKIP members rejoining the Party and working on the Post EU debate that I notice , gets almost no coverage ….Could it be that nit picking on the narrow subject of Constitutional chicanery is more fun that constructing the positive case. ? Hmmmm?

DK you are a clever chap and I am in agreement with your views on this matter you are however acting in way that , if anyone listens to you , is likely to produce the opposite outcome to the one you would prefer. The only way out of Europe is via the Conservative Party. This Party is now universally Eurosceptic and only needs the added element of a solid after EU narrative to tip the political edifice over . Already those who arte used to referring to immigration and the EU as embarrassing relatives of the Party find they are no longer embarrassed . This is because the country has moved .

This schism on the right has to be healed for the left`s hegemony to be broken and those who working against it are working for Brown . The most illiberal and dishonest administration we have seen since the war. You are , in fact , a doity splitter


PS -Did you know there is a rumour that Blair will be the president ..? eeeek

Ordovicius said...

On the subject of the Reform Treaty...aren't UKIP and the Tories secretly pleased that it legalizes secession?

poohbear said...

Dear Newmania,

I have a very high regard for your opinions and posts and follow them closely BUT the fact is I look at the Tories and wonder IF they have been bought and sold into the superstate? I truly hope not but looking at the evidence I can see no independent spirit but even were it true that the Tories would roll back the EUSSR invasion there is going to be a concerted propaganda offensive by the BBC who will stop at nothing to defend the EUSSR superstate! If you think that the BBC commisars are biased now just wait untill a tory regime trys to prise the bloated and poisonous fingers of the EU commisars off our government!

Mark Wadsworth said...

Andrew Marr asked William Hague the same question just now "If Labour ratify this treaty without a referendum, would an incoming conservative government repeal it?" and the bald twat just waffled and waffled and refused to answer. It is a simple question, Bald Billy, just answer it!

AD627 said...

Please delete the apostrophe in the title.

Does the interviewer simply take as a given perfidy on the part of the LibDems?

Roger Thornhill said...

Conservatives take the centre then move it? Would it have not been better to just retain integrity about your beliefs instead of a PR firm trying to sell just another brand of soap?

Cleanthes said...

In fact, it's even simpler than that: get the LORDS to introduce an amendment to the bill to require a referendum.

Brown will then be left in the position of having to use the Parliament Act to avoid being held to a manifesto commitment.

I'm struggling to see why this can't be done. Any ideas?

Newmania said...

RToger and nmark -I posted as folows on the Marr programme this morning:

Interesting Marr-athon this morning . William Hague was ,as ever a giant strolling amongst the Lilliputians when Marr interviewed both him and Europe Minister , Jim Murphy (1). Hague made the point, which lurks behind all of this . This is not a forensically detailed legal dispute . This is a ‘process‘. In the case if the New Constitution , the ability to amend in the future is written in, obviating the necessity for further awkwardness of a democratic nature .

Marr pressed Hague on whether the Conservative Party would repeal the Treaty if they won the election and I thought he gave a good answer . If this is signed without a referendum then they would , probably ,want to hold one , they weren’t going to decide on what exactly they would do now but legislation would be passed to ensure no future government passes the country into the hands of foreigners without consulting the people. Now that is as far as they can reasonably be expected to go and there is no excuse for UKIP members not to support this Party in marginal constituencies .

What do you want . Proper Parties cannot spend all their poltical capital on a issue at 14th in the list of public concerns. Bitching about Conservatives is a just the safety of harbour. We agree more or less anway and its achieves absolutely nothing.

Direct your fire where it belongs please.

Pooh Bear, thanks ( ish) The Cionservative Party are bnot the problem the electorate are tghe probl;em .At this point many of thenm like being in the EU and this ties the hands of a Major Party.

Devil's Kitchen said...


Do me a favour, OK, and consider this question: all other things being as they are at present, if the Tories dropped any pretence at being EUsceptic, would you still vote for them?

"We agree more or less anway and its achieves absolutely nothing."

No, no, no. How many times do I have to say this: I agree with almost nothing that the current Conservative Party stands for; this is because I am a fucking LIBERTARIAN.

When will you Tories get your head around the idea that the Conservatives are NOT libertarians. For fuck's sake...


poohbear said...

Dear Newmania,

Many in the conservative ranks like the EUSSR because they know which side their bread is buttered! Many are on the gravytrain and they have their fingers well and truly in the till!
BUT the fact remains that the Tories are still our only hope(albeit a very tenous one) to roll back or at least keep at bay the forces of fascist evil that is the EU while a libertarian front can organise?
But on the other hand perhaps the electorate must have their noses truly rubbed in the shite of a USSR MK2 before they learn the lesson never again to elect a socialist regime! The MSM it seems are in cahoots with the 'FOE' because all they do is confuse the issues and muddy the waters and the only real info getting out is on the net!
The only person who has not yet shown his face is the puppeteer.

Newmania said...

the Tories are still our only hope indeed ..I `m sorry I missed the rest of that :)


DK:Do me a favour,

( The fallen one crouches before the Archangel now reptilian of aspect and hatfeul to himself )

( Says the Angel)

DK-All other things being as they are at present, if the Tories dropped any pretence at being EU sceptic, would you still vote for them?

( hisses the toad godlet)

N-That’s like asking if a fish dropped all pretence to an aquatic life would you throw it in the river but …. Just to play along …. .This is inconceivable in isolation outside the context of an extreme Heathite quasi socialist anti nationalist Party. This Party would be to the left of Blair so I would probably throw in my lot with New Labour , Gisella Stewart , Frank Field why not ( I might equally slit my own throat)

( The angels voice rings pure like music and light the fallen one desperately seeks lower ground )

DK-"We agree more or less anway “
No, no, no. How many times do I have to say this: I agree with almost nothing that the current Conservative Party stands for; this is because I am a fucking LIBERTARIAN.
When will you Tories get your head around the idea that the Conservatives are NOT libertarians. For fuck's sake…

( …clutching the filth around him the creature flings what he can at the laughing angel who replies in a manly firm voice….. )

N-I meant we agree about Europe not ‘anarchy’ which I deplore , but on Liberty….

Conservatives believe in Liberty its just that they consider units at a higher level than the individual at times. You think that man unfettered by states and laws was free . Wrong , he was enslaved by the nearest big man he yearned for “The King`s peace “ from which our glorious but desecrated Constitution is bequeathed in an almost unbroken evolution. This Conservatism is inherently anti EU an anti doctrinal Libertarianism when it tends to Marxist year zero anarchy. Your belief in atomised anarchy is based on romantic ideas associated with Rousseau about perfectibility which crop up , usually , in Marxist circles like the kibutz movement . You think life is to do with intelligence. Wrong , mostly , it is to do with power and love primarily . Conservatism seeks to find the right balance to deliver the most real freedom in the real, world . It appreciates tradition and the liberating power of structures at sub state level . It is a sonnet and a dream eternally , also a policy we can enact tomorrow , not an inky fingered copy of Hayek drifting in limbo.It is the very essence of the spirit of free men and women expressed politically.

( The angel Pauses for the rapturous applause of the host of the heavenly gathered to watch the victory,…he continues)

Anyway perhaps you would; return the favour and answer me this :

Does you Libertarianism extend to the Liberty of anyone who fancies it to turn up here ? Or is it Liberty within One Nation only ? I `m not sure your UKIP chums are going to like real Liberty freedom of movement , that sort of thing.
What about the freedom to screw children eh ? After all in parts of the world 14 is fine . I wonder does this Libertarianism extend to that ..,..and what would UKIP make of it ? Not much considering they just about mange to allow gays to be left alone .
Would UKIP be able to contain the trade Union objectors to the EU whose objection is precisely that international labour undermines the closed national shop. I think me not sirrah

(His Opponent a Bloody mangle of blood bone and under a pitiless sun this implacable avenging principle turns to the world to sum up…..)

My friends ,from Chomsky onward Libertarian thinking has been a good way of offering a critique but a bad way of proceeding . I implore all tempted by the Dark lord to return to the light and help fight an administration that means to turn this country into Airport one from without and within. This silly fraternal strife must end or we have nothing to look forward to bu the thousand year Reich of Brown`s National Government Join the coalition of the willing we call “The Conservative Party “ help support nice David Cameron and nice friends .

Save the country......

( The beknighted minions of the fallen one flock to rejoin the way of light