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Friday, November 10, 2006

Paedo-filing cabinet

Posted by Devil's Kitchen at 11/10/2006 01:21:00 PM

Via Iain Dale, I find this interesting story in The Scum. At first glance, the story is, indeed, a shocking one (and The Scum decides to emphasise the shock value by placing a cute teddy-bear on the 3D reconstruction of the bed!).
A PAEDO seduced a girl of 12 — then lived in her bedroom for THREE MONTHS without her mother finding out.

Scott Jennings, 22, cut a giant hole in the bottom of the youngster’s divan bed then used it as a secret den to evade detection if somebody came into the room.

He systematically abused the girl. And when she went to school in the morning, Jennings slipped out of the house to find food.

Note that, in this introduction, Jennings is introduced as the sole perpetrator here. Then read on. [Emphasis mine.]
Jennings, of Ashton-under-Lyne, Gtr Manchester, befriended the girl on a bus last year.

He began chatting her up, persuaded her to give him her mobile phone number and then arranged a date.

When they met, Jennings said he had nowhere to live and confided that he was wanted by police for a minor dishonesty offence.

He told the girl he needed somewhere to hide and was taken into her home unnoticed. The pair then cut a hole in the bottom section of her bed enabling him to hide in it whenever her mum came in.

Manchester Crown Court heard the girl then swore her ten-year-old sister to secrecy about Jennings.

His lair was found after the 12-year-old ran away with him leaving a note telling her mum not to worry.

Now, note that there is an element of collusion here: the girl seems to have very definitely helped him voluntarily.
Last night Det Con Dave Donlan said: “It is a quite extraordinary case. It is absolutely unbelievable — but it is as it sounds. It came as a complete shock to all concerned.

“This is an absolutely unbelievable case that has had a huge impact on the victim and her family.

As regular readers will know, your humble Devil is a big fan of Simon Raven; in his most autobiographical book, Fielding Gray, Raven dicourses—through the mouth of one of his characters—on the sexual predilections of young boys in a boys' school.
'But what they can't or won't realise,' Peter said, almost angrily for him, 'is that it's not what two boys do together in private which does the permanent damage, but the hysterical row which goes on if they get caught.'

'I'm not quite with you.'

'Well then. Two boys disappear into the bushes. once, twice, twenty times. They get a lot of pleasure from one another, but other things being equal it does not become a permanent taste, because they grow up and go out into a wider world which offers richer diversions. All right?'

'All right.'

'But supposing they're found out. Drama, tears, denunciation, letters to parents, threats of expulsion, endless inquisition: when, how often, with whom, where, how … And by the time that little lot's over, what would have been just a casual experience, not much more than an accident, has become … momentous, obsessive. It has been brnaded onto the very core of memory and feeling. It has become something which is always with you, like a wound which will be there and keep reopening for the rest of your life. A trauma, I think that the phsychologists call it. But the wound was not inflicted, in most cases, by the original incident, only by the savage insistance … by the vengefulness … of those who chanced to find the secret out…'

Now, I'm aware that many people might feel that I am on very dodgy ground here, but do you get the gist of what I'm getting at?

In this case, there seems to have been very little coercion (as far as I can tell from the article) by Jennings. Yes, legally (and, we would say) morally, the girl is far too young to decide for herself; however, our age of consent laws are, to an extent, fairly arbitrary and, moreover, dictated by factors other than the maturity of one person or another.

Within the continent of Europe, the age of consent differs: whilst many places—such as Britain—define the age of consent as 16, it is 15 in Greece, France and Denmark, for instance. In Estonia, Hungary, Iceland it is 14; and in Italy it is 14, or 13 if the particpants' age difference is less than 3 years; in Spain it is 13 (and it was 12 until only a few years ago).

Now, it is perfectly possible to argue that Scott Jennings did indeed take advantage of the girl; it is perfectly possible to argue that he used his more mature intellect to seduce and psychologically take advantage of the 12 year old; one can condemn this behaviour, of course.

However, whilst he is probably an unpleasant man, he does not seem to have forced her physically and he does not seem to have compelled her to act in any way. She voluntarily met him; she voluntarily gave him her mobile number; she voluntarily invited him into her house and helped to conceal him; and she voluntarily ran away with him. And there is little indication that any sexual activity was not entirely voluntary too (which, I would guess, explains the leniency of Jennings' punishment).

And, assuming that I agree with Raven's discourse above, what do you think will have caused the girl more trauma: the acts themselves or the months of questioning, the court appearances (even if only by video link) and the general witchhunt?

Note, please, that I am not condoning the seduction of twelve year olds (although it apparently seems to happen every day in the UK), but I am questioning how beneficial—for the victim—is our response to such actions, in cases such as this.

Posted by Devil's Kitchen at 11/10/2006 01:21:00 PM


30 Blogger Comments:

Blogger The Nameless One said...

I'm sorry but how unobservant are the parents? Christ on a trike but you would have thought they would have noticed the paedo hiding in their daughter's bed.

11/10/2006 02:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is case to suggest that these people who years after the event claim to be traumatised by an early sexual encounter but who are in fact traumatised by the hysterical public attitude, and feel that they must somehow mitigate their experience by reliving it as something far worse than it was.

Speaking as someone who at the age of 11 had his bottom expertly fondled by his own headmaster, on more than one occasion, I cannot for the life of me feel traumatised or sullied in anyway. It was school - you had your bottom fondled by a teacher and Cindy Hutton let you feel her whatsit.

Cindy, if you are out there, I am deeply sorry.

11/10/2006 02:44:00 PM  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

"whilst he is probably an unpleasant man..."

Probably....?! Jeez....

11/10/2006 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger CityUnslicker said...

The age of consent in Holland is 12 too.

On balance, I agree the sentence seems fair.

great example of tabloid reporting eh?

11/10/2006 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger Iain Dale said...

I'm sorry but I find this argument wholly unconvincing. Having sexual intercourse with a 12 year old is not only illegal but sick. It doesn;t matter whether any part of it was voluntary. The law considers it rape, and rightly so. I stick by the argument I put forward on my blog that this sentence is ridiculously low.

11/10/2006 06:17:00 PM  
Blogger mark said...

If a 22yo man has consensual sex with my 12yo daughter, I'll go ballistic at both and maybe do violence to him. Adulthood carries responsibilities. Refraining from sex with children is one of them. If a 12yo boy has consensual sex with my 12yo daughter, I'll go ballistic at both, but won't do violence.

I agree that society's kerfuffle is likely to be far more traumatic than the sex. The real risk of rampant paedophilia and disgusting exploitation of children dictates that a very clear and conservative line is drawn and it is adults who must be forced to stay the right side of that line despite the obvious fact that there is nothing perverted in nature about being sexually attracted to a fertile member of the opposite sex.

11/10/2006 08:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Lady Finchley said...

What an apologist for sex with children you are and as for the bloggers who agree with you - how disgusting you all are.

He was a man, she was a child - it was grooming and by law, rape. Your piece was horribly reminiscent of the Man-Boy Love Society who extolled the virtues of sex with young boys, claiming they loved it and wanted it. You really are distastful- I wouldn't let you within a mile of any child.

11/11/2006 11:59:00 AM  
Blogger Mr Eugenides said...

Better not tell Lady Finchley about the underage disco we crashed last night then, eh, DK?

11/11/2006 12:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I feel that there is a degree of unreflective absolutism being displayed by Ian Dale and Lady Finchley. I don't think that anyone is advocating that children should be abused by adults in any way. However, there is something of a moral panic about peaedophila in western societies which leads to real miscarriages of justice. On balance, I think that the judge got it about right. And yes, I have a daughter myself.

11/11/2006 01:35:00 PM  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

"I don't think that anyone is advocating that children should be abused by adults in any way."

No, of course not.

But if you want to mount the high horse of moral authority, it helps to paint your adversary as a paedophile-enabler, if it's easier than tackling what he actually posted about, which is society's skewed attitude to age of consent and the mass media's feeding frenzy whenever such a case hoves into view.....

11/11/2006 07:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Lady Finchley said...

Moral panic about paedophilia? There is plenty to panic about buster - I always thought that Andrea Dworkin's view that all men were rapists was insane but after reading these comments I'm not so sure. She was 12! I don't care how flirtatious, grown up, consenting, what a little minx she was - she was 12! He was 22. You all seem to have a Lolita complex. Miscarriages of justice my arse. Society's skewed attitude to the age of consent? I guess at heart you all think women and girls are gagging for it. So Sacerdote, I guess you have no objection to some shitbag thinking your daughter is 'gagging for it'.

11/11/2006 08:02:00 PM  
Blogger Devil's Kitchen said...

Iain,

Having sexual intercourse with a 12 year old is not only illegal but sick.

Over the last few years, we have had a number of stories about children of 11 giving birth: remember the three sisters who had all had children and the eldest was 13. So, some people obviously do not think that having sex with a 12 year old is sick, and obviously some 12 year olds (and younger) do not think that having sex is sick.

It is also a scientific fact that the average age of puberty has lowered considerably over the last few centuries, especially in women. In many cases, 12 year olds are physically ready for sex. We deem them not to be mentally and legislate for that: however, a few years ago, the law said that it was wrong -- and we may take it from some of the responses here that some think that the law is a moral arbiter -- for two 17 year old boys to have sex.What has changed, biologically, that we now think that it is fine if they are 16? Zip, nothing, less than bugger all. Our attitudes to gay sex has merely changed.

And, as I pointed out, even our EU partners differ in their attitudes as the correct age of sexual consent. As I pointed out, in Spain in 1995 this girl would be quite legally able to take the decision to have sex. Are the Spanish all sick? Will you tell them or shall I?

Part of the problem is that many people -- and especially women -- seem to regard sex as something inherently bad. It isn't; it can be a lot of fun. One only has to hear a woman explain the joys of multiple orgasms to understand this: a multiple orgasm might well persuade a 12 year old to run away with a 22 year old.

Lady Finchley: with all due respect (very little), you are a close-minded, bigoted fool.

He was a man, she was a child - it was grooming and by law, rape.

Yes, but reading the piece, it was quite clearly a statutory rape, and entirely lacking in physical coercion. I did not argue that it was not illegal, I merely opened up a debate by arguing a different point of view. Are you going to start arguing that the consensual sex that this 12 year old indulged in was more traumatic than the subsequent inquisition and trial? Because, if you are then you are a fucking idiot.

You really are distastful- I wouldn't let you within a mile of any child.

What makes you think that I want to be anywhere near your brat, for fuck's sake? Personally, I don't find 12 year olds attractive (well, not most of 'em), nor am I advocating making sex with 12 year olds legal. I really shouldn't have to say this, but go back and read my fucking piece: take off your Daily Mail blinkers and, just for five fucking minutes, understand and consider the points that I am making. And try not to let your knee jerk too much.

Moral panic about paedophilia? There is plenty to panic about buster - I always thought that Andrea Dworkin's view that all men were rapists was insane but after reading these comments I'm not so sure.

Fucking hell, I would be deeply ashamed if I had written the above sentence: I hope that you are.

I guess at heart you all think women and girls are gagging for it.

You are, Lady Finchley, without doubt, the stupidest, most unpleasant commenter I've ever had at The Kitchen. Are you wilfully misunderstanding me, or are you normally this thick? Are you seriously unable to consider a subject in any other light -- even a theoretical one -- without resorting to such close-minded generalisations?

[sarcasm]
Oh, yes, Lady F, I definitely think that all ladies are gagging for it, absolutely, naturally, of course they are.
[/sarcasm]

I happen to know, however, a lot of women who really enjoy sex. You are obviously not one of them: I'm really sorry that you have such a shitty sex life (and an orgasm is obviously only something you've read about), why don't you find someone who knows where your clit is? Mind you, I

11/11/2006 10:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Lady Finchley said...

Fuck off Pencil Dick - you wouldn't know a real woman if she sat on your face. You are obviously a sad little fucko - you can't get a real woman so you pick on 12 year olds.

So good sex involves doing it with 12 year olds. No, and you wouldn't get near my brat because I would cut your fucking balls off (as small as they are) and stick them down your throat.

What an immature, little snotnose you are - if a woman disagrees with you she is frigid or a lesbian. Well, I'm neither, shit for brains, but you'll never know. Of course you would seem like a good lover - to a 12 year old.

Actually it is your mother I feel sorry for, for having shat out such an abortion as you.

11/11/2006 10:47:00 PM  
Blogger Mr Eugenides said...

Zing!

11/11/2006 11:02:00 PM  
Blogger Devil's Kitchen said...

Lady F,

Are you deliberately misunderstanding me? I can only conclude that you are. I know that one really should not feed the trolls, but nevertheless I shall attempt to reply to your inane comments.

Fuck off Pencil Dick - you wouldn't know a real woman if she sat on your face. You are obviously a sad little fucko - you can't get a real woman so you pick on 12 year olds.

Good god, do you want a list of people and ages? Several of them read this blog, so I won't reveal all. Needless to say, I have had many "real women", who are woman enough to be pissed off at being denigrated by you. However, they enjoy sex, which was rather the point that I was making.

So good sex involves doing it with 12 year olds.

You are the one that has made that a statement. I wouldn't know, I've never slept with a 12 year old: good, are they? Nice and tight, I'd imagine?

No, and you wouldn't get near my brat because I would cut your fucking balls off (as small as they are) and stick them down your throat.

Flattery will get you everywhere. Especially with 12 year olds.

What an immature, little snotnose you are - if a woman disagrees with you she is frigid or a lesbian.

Come, come, Lady F, I didn't say that at all. I know a number of lesbians who very much enjoy sex. I merely said that your sex life was obviously pretty poor, as you so obviously regard sex as being a torture that the young should not be exposed to. I thought that it was very sad.

Well, I'm neither, shit for brains, but you'll never know.

Phew! Well that was a close escape, eh? OK, so you enjoy sex: so you are open to the possibility that even 12 year olds might also enjoy sex? Given the surveys of the sexualy active, one might draw the conclusion that those girls who have sex whilst under the legal age of consent may, in many circumstances, enjoy it. Or are you saying that all girls are so feeble that they are pressured into it by evil, dominating men?

Of course you would seem like a good lover - to a 12 year old.

Well, as I say, I wouldn't know as I haven't slept with a 12 year old. But since girls much older than that think that I am a good lover -- they keep coming back for more, so one much assume that I ain't all bad -- I imagine that I would seem like an extraordinarily good lover to a 12 year old, yes.

Actually it is your mother I feel sorry for, for having shat out such an abortion as you.

It is your brat I feel sorry for, having such a reactionary, bigoted fucktard such as yourself for a mother. Ah well, as somebody once said, I can wish no worse fate on you than to be the narrow-minded fuckwit that you so patently are.

What an odd person you are. I float a couple of perfectly reasonable points for debate and, in your warped mind, you think that I am advocating the fucking of 12 year olds. Is there perhaps some wish transference here? Good lord, I hope you don't have a son or he's going to start having some strange late-night visits from his mummy as soon as he gets a hair or two on his winkle, eh?

DK

11/12/2006 03:06:00 AM  
Anonymous Lady Finchley said...

Listen you little abortion, why don't you say who you are so I can knock your teeth down your throat.

You obviously have a severe mother complex and no doubt she spurned your advances so you have it in for mothers.

And to boast about your conquests -I think your protest too much, pencil dick. And if they keep coming back, it must be for a good laugh.

Only a moron would make a debate so disgusting personal. You obviously have few debating skills, prefering to save your energy for skulking around schoolyards.

11/12/2006 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger Mr Eugenides said...

Er, you kicked it off, Lady Finchley, by saying that you wouldn't let DK "within a mile" of any child, and accusing several commenters on this thread of having "Lolita complexes", well before DK responded.

It strikes me that if you come onto someone's blog and make statements like that, you should not be surprised when the blog owner responds in kind.

You don't sound very ladylike, it must be said. I hope you're not actually a man who is using a female identity online? That's the sort of thing them paedo scum do...

11/12/2006 11:46:00 AM  
Anonymous Lady Finchley said...

Oh yes that's right, it's not ladylike to have strong opinions. Funny how you all don't like it when a woman gets close to the knuckle, she's frigid, a dyke or a man. If you look carefully, Mr. E, you will see that DK attacked first. He went absolutely ape because a woman disagreed with his rather unsavoury leanings. It quite reminds me of the Woody Allen situation when he made off with his young step daughter (who was admittedly at the age of consent). Even quite respectable men thought it no bad thing and thought Woody was quite the boy when he was just a pathetic weedy little shit. No, not illegal of course, but highly inappropriate.

Of course now I know what DK's problem is - he is Scottish( big cip on his puny shoulders) and works in the 'meedja' What a twat.

11/12/2006 12:27:00 PM  
Blogger Dangerouslysubversivedad said...

Fucking hell DK, you dont piss about with the old 'inviting controversy' here do you...I think the point you make about the trauma of a trial etc is perhaps valid - in the short-term. But the longterm effects of being exploited and manipulated by scum such as this are very likely to see the kid in an insitution in later life. That's the piece of the picture your missing with the post.

That said, the bastard should have been castrated, then hung. If only to stop him doing the same thing with a 12-year old who isnt so easuly manipulated. Having had the traumatic trial, for the guy to receive a lenient sentence seems idiotic.

Tis a little bit worrying that I am more in agreement with a wetpants Liberal like Iain Dale than I am with a fellow UKIP man...

11/12/2006 01:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lady F,

You may wish to read Why Johnny Can't Reason.

It explains that 68% of the adult population are incapable of abstract reasoning. This pretty much seems to sum you up. Still, for the sake of form, and bearing in mind DK's warning about trolls:

So Sacerdote, I guess you have no objection to some shitbag thinking your daughter is 'gagging for it'.

I would be perfectly happy for my daughter to be 'gagging for it' when she's old enough to make a mature decision about it for herself. I think that's the position of most people here.

However, the age of consent is an arbitrary line drawn, in this country, at 16. Other countries do it differently; it is not an infallible moral guideline.

All men are not rapists or paedophiles, in fact very few are. Tarring everyone with the same brush and your ad hominem attacks do your case no favours.

11/12/2006 03:54:00 PM  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

"Oh yes that's right, it's not ladylike to have strong opinions..."

Really? Oh bugger, that's me screwed then!

Ooh, perhaps I could have put that better... ;)

11/12/2006 05:21:00 PM  
Anonymous Lady Finchley said...

Sacerdote,

Try abstract reasoning when you catch some 22 year old shitbag at it with your 12 year old daughter. Or will she be mature enough to be gagging for it by then? Perhaps you'll even take them tea in bed. You might hav eeven introduced them.

So, father of the year - so do refrain from lecturing me on my intellect. How can anybody get this through your thick skull - 12 is still childhood. It is not 16 or even 14. It is 12. How about putting your own little Lolita fantasies aside and think about this with a clear head.

11/12/2006 05:30:00 PM  
Blogger Devil's Kitchen said...

I think the point you make about the trauma of a trial etc is perhaps valid - in the short-term. But the longterm effects of being exploited and manipulated by scum such as this are very likely to see the kid in an insitution in later life. That's the piece of the picture your missing with the post.

Yup, I can accept that (mainly because I do not have any evidence to disprove it). Still, let's look at what trauma is.

"Psychological trauma is a type of damage to the psyche that occurs as a result of a traumatic event. A traumatic event involves a singular experience or enduring event or events that completely overwhelm the individual's ability to cope or integrate the ideas and emotions involved with that experience. Trauma can be caused by a wide variety of events, but there are a few common aspects. It usually involves a complete feeling of helplessness in the face of a real or subjective threat to life, bodily integrity, or sanity."

Does this girl seem to have been overwhelmed by Jennings? Difficult to say, but it seems that she enjoyed his attentions enough to hide him for 3 months (without telling anyone) and then to run away with him. Now, one could say that this was because Jennings was able to exert a powerful influence over her (although I cannot say that he looks like a Machiavellian genius), or one could say that it was because she enjoyed his attentions.

In either case, the following questions could be asked (and I use the word "naturally" as in... hmmm... primitism? Is it genetically, inherently wrong? Difficult to explain, but do you know what I mean?).
1) Is sex with someone who has gone through puberty naturally wrong?
2) Is sex between people with an age difference naturally wrong?

So where does the trauma originate? Any feelings of wrongness -- of trauma -- are a learned response. So, from whence is the behaviour learned? In this case, the child will learn that her behaviour is wrong -- and that she should feel trauma -- from the adults who will repeatedly tell her that she was "taken advantage of", and "abused" and "raped". This was the point of the Simon Raven section that I quoted. It is the adult-created stigma that is likely to cause any future trauma.

I shouldn't have to keep saying this, but none of this is to condone Jennings: he knew what he was going was wrong, if only because he should have understood that -- when caught -- this would damage the girl as described.

That said, the bastard should have been castrated, then hung. If only to stop him doing the same thing with a 12-year old who isnt so easuly manipulated. Having had the traumatic trial, for the guy to receive a lenient sentence seems idiotic.

Others have, indeed, pointed out that sex offenders' behaviour does tend to escalate but, I repeat, we do not prosecute people for crimes that they might commit. It would be nice to think that he will come out of prison having learned his lesson, but i share most people's cynical view that he will not.

DK

11/12/2006 05:37:00 PM  
Blogger Devil's Kitchen said...

Lady Finchley,

Your concept of chronology seems to be as flawed as your ability to reason. At 11.59 on the morning of the 11th, you wrote this.

Lady Finchley said...
What an apologist for sex with children you are and as for the bloggers who agree with you - how disgusting you all are.

He was a man, she was a child - it was grooming and by law, rape. Your piece was horribly reminiscent of the Man-Boy Love Society who extolled the virtues of sex with young boys, claiming they loved it and wanted it. You really are distastful- I wouldn't let you within a mile of any child.

11/11/2006 11:59:31 AM


It as not until 10.38 PM, on the evening of the 11th, that I answered. Therefore, for you to say to Mr E that "If you look carefully, Mr. E, you will see that DK attacked first" is not only a lie, but demonstrably so: everyone can see it. I know, those time-stamped comments are pesky things, aren't they?

"Try abstract reasoning when you catch some 22 year old shitbag at it with your 12 year old daughter."

Look, you have just admitted that you are unable to reason in a rational manner on this topic -- so stop commenting, please. Either that, or try a little disassociation. Even try to imagine that it is a 15 year old girl; would that help? The arguments that I have employed would apply just as equally to a girl (or boy) of that age too.

DK

11/12/2006 05:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Lady Finchley said...

Hey meedja boy - don't you have anything else to do except go thru posts trying to defend your vile opinions?

Now let us try this again, shall we?

She was 12 years old. I don't care what a little minx you think she might have been, or if indeed she had entered puberty at 10. At 12 years old and this doesn't matter what her bra size is, she does not have the maturity to reason properly. How many children do you have numbnuts? She is a child under the law and there is no discretion available to the judge in my opinion. And there is the age difference involved. If it was a 13 year old boy hiding under her bed then it is entirely different because he too is not an adult. This guy was an adult (Christ this is getting tiring, having to spell it out yet again), who groomed a susceptible young girl for sex. He deserves to be tried and punished and not just for 2 years. End of story. I don't care how they do it in Spain or New Guinea - it doesn't make it right.

Now go back to salivating over 'Barely Legal' or whatever you do for kicks.

11/12/2006 06:48:00 PM  
Blogger Devil's Kitchen said...

Lady F,

"Hey meedja boy - don't you have anything else to do except go thru posts trying to defend your vile opinions?"

I am a graphic designer: I suppose that that does count as a media job, yes. Still, do you have nothing better to do than go through comments full of vile opinions? Shouldn't you be collecting your child from her daddy's house?

Any comments here get emailed to me, thus I know when someone has replied. You, on the other hand, actively return here (presumably several times a day) in order to read through these "vile opinions" again.

"Now let us try this again, shall we?"

Dear god, do we have to? Right, fine.

"She was 12 years old. I don't care what a little minx you think she might have been, or if indeed she had entered puberty at 10."

I never implied at any point that she was a "little minx" or anything else. I never even stated that she led him on. I merely opined that it is perfectly possible for someone of that age to enjoy sex; she has a clitoris too, doesn't she? I also pointed out that her subsequent behaviour might lead one to believe that she did, indeed, enjoy what Jennings was doing with her.

"At 12 years old and this doesn't matter what her bra size is, she does not have the maturity to reason properly."

Yes, I know this and have stated so several times. I am not excusing Jennings' behaviour. However, at 12, she is still capable of feeling sexual pleasure. What I was asking people to do was to put aside their learned moral responses and consider things from a different point of view, as an intellectual exercise as much as anything else.

"How many children do you have numbnuts?"

None, and precisely what difference does that make? I have a brother who is 12 years younger than I: he was the same age as Jamie Bulger when he was murdered. Whilst that coincidence upset me, I was able to consider the Bulger case dispassionately too. It's called "reasoning"; it's one of those things that sets humans apart from the beasts of the field.

"She is a child under the law and there is no discretion available to the judge in my opinion."

Yes, but thankfully the law is not based on your opinion. And I know that she is a child under the law: I was not disputing the illegality of the acts involved. What I did point out is that the law is arbitrary on this point: to illustrate this, I demonstrated that other countries effectively disagree with the UK about when someone is or is not legally a child.

"And there is the age difference involved. If it was a 13 year old boy hiding under her bed then it is entirely different because he too is not an adult."

There is no difference under the law. There is in Italy -- if the is an age gap of less than 3 years, the age of consent drops from 14 to 13 -- but not in this country. Because, as you state, there is no difference in her legal ability to make a decision.

"This guy was an adult (Christ this is getting tiring, having to spell it out yet again), who groomed a susceptible young girl for sex. He deserves to be tried and punished and not just for 2 years. End of story."

Well, the judge -- who knows far more about the case than either of us -- obviously disagreed with you (as does my lawyer friend. He felt that 2 years was possibly a little light but that, considering the circumstances, 4 years would be too much). Why doen't you write insulting letters to him? Perhaps you'd like to ask him how many children he has?

"I don't care how they do it in Spain or New Guinea - it doesn't make it right."

Well, we need to make a difference between the law and morality here, don't we? If a country's age of consent is 12 then legally it is "right" even if you consider it morally wrong. People's morality differs quite considerably: my moral attitude to gay sex, for instance, differs quite considerably from my father's.

"Now go ba

11/12/2006 07:16:00 PM  
Blogger Mr Eugenides said...

I think that this kind of moral absolutism is all very well, Lady F, but where does it end?

I share your disgust at a grown man fucking a 12 year-old, but as you yourself said, she was not 16 or 14. So would that have made a difference? What if she was 13?

An analogy might be a man who finds his wife in bed with the milkman and, in a fit of rage, shoots them both; versus a man who waits outside a synagogue and guns down the first five Jews that come out, because he just doesn't like Jews.

That I consider one crime to be morally and legally worse than the other does not entail any approval of the actions of the man in the first example. I don't have any problem in saying that both are evil acts, but one is more evil than the other.

I don't know if the thrust of DK's post is that he doesn't think this should have gone to court; if it is, then I disagree with him. But it's not unreasonable to suggest that the trauma of being hauled up in court and your family disgraced [her anonymity will not have been long preserved in the neighbourhood she lives] is at least as horrendous as engaging in what you think is 'consensual' sex with someone, even if they're just taking advantage of you for a cheap thrill.

Given that DK was making that argument and specifically said that he did not condone what had happened, I find the vehemence of your response confusing.

11/12/2006 07:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Lady Finchley said...

I will say one last thing meedja boy - according to some experts, babies are capable of sexual pleasure - does that mean its okay to sleep with him.

I can see from the rest of your posts that you think that you're a real intellectual, the devil's advocate so to speak. Well, I shall let you in on this meedja boy-self important bores like you line bars, spouting idiocy, all over the world.

And should I ever find out who you are and meet you, I'll smack you hard, for inferring that I intefere with my son. Then, my son and husband will have a go. Afterwards, I'll consult a solicitor about your accusations. Now go and have a drool over 'Barely Legal', you piece of crap.

11/13/2006 07:11:00 AM  
Blogger Devil's Kitchen said...

Lady F,

I will say one last thing meedja boy - according to some experts, babies are capable of sexual pleasure - does that mean its okay to sleep with him.

*sigh* No, of course it doesn't. And I never said that it was.

I can see from the rest of your posts that you think that you're a real intellectual, the devil's advocate so to speak. Well, I shall let you in on this meedja boy-self important bores like you line bars, spouting idiocy, all over the world.

Indeed; I myself frequently line bars spouting idiocy. But then I don't force you to read this, you know, just as I don't force people to listen to what I say in bars.

And should I ever find out who you are and meet you, I'll smack you hard, for inferring that I intefere with my son. Then, my son and husband will have a go.

Ah, yes, threats of violence are always a good solution to an intellectual debate, aren't they? You know, there are plenty of mentally-challenged idiots like you lining the floors of bars on a Friday night. They are also usually incapable of considering shades of grey in any problem.

Afterwards, I'll consult a solicitor about your accusations. Now go and have a drool over 'Barely Legal', you piece of crap.

You really fail to see the irony in the juxtaposition of those last two sentences, don't you? My dear Lady F, you have so far called me an "apologist for sex with children", "Pencil Dick", "an immature, little snotnose", "shit for brains", a "little abortion", a "moron", "a twat", a "piece of crap" and, most insultingly of all, "Scottish".

You have also as good as stated that I have sex with children -- "you can't get a real woman so you pick on 12 year olds"; "skulking around schoolyards" -- and that I have tried to sleep with my mother -- "no doubt she spurned your advances so you have it in for mothers".

To be honest, I really don't think that any solicitor would take up your case since our... what for want of a better word I shall call a "conversation"... here is a matter of record.

However, you have committed a crime in threatening me (repeatedly) with violence and it should be perfectly possible for me to look up your IP address and place you if you'd really like me to.

You came in here, called both myself and my other commentors child abusers ("apologist for sex with children") -- which I consider to be rather bad form, frankly (as well as being potentially libellous) -- and totally failed to gain the nuance of my post in any way, or attempt to engage with the really quite reasonable points that myself and others put forward. I explicitly said (repeatedly) that I did not condone Jennings' actions: I was instead making a point about the way that society puts the victims through a time that is, in this sort of case, at least as traumatic as the original incident.

I didn't see this as a particularly daring "devil's advocate" idea, to be honest; I merely thought that it was interesting that we never hear about the effect of a trial of this nature on the victim (not since it became illegal for sex offenders to cross-examine their victims anyway). It was an idea to explore as an intellectual exercise.

Well, we could say that we have had a debate (and, indeed, I have had with some) but you have, metaphorically, just stuck your fingers in your ears, screaming "la la la, can't hear you!" You have obviously refused to read or consider any replies in a way that is intellectually lazy and, at least to me, as morally repugnant as you appear to find my idle musings. Finally, you have offered repeated threats of violence.

I think that you have embarrassed yourself enough, don't you? Now do go away before you make yourself even more clearly liable for criminal prosecution.

DK

11/13/2006 07:49:00 AM  
Anonymous Lady Finchley said...

I'm shaking in my shoes, meedja boy.

11/13/2006 07:32:00 PM  

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