Tuesday, October 10, 2006

Idiotic political fallacies

Yes, I know that I'm in danger of becoming something of a single issue blog but I'm in this vein right now: I shall switch to other things when other things happen. Anyway, Elaib points out that there are a huge number of heftily-endorsed and overwhelmingly positive comments about UKIP on the Beeb's Have Your Say section.

This is, of course, all good news but, being the little bitch that I am, it is the ignorance and idiocy of the gainsayers (who don't really start getting endorsements until about page 4. Well, page 5, really). First up, is a lady who accuses UKIP of being right-wing.
Added: Saturday, 7 October, 2006, 13:57 GMT 14:57 UK
UKIP is a minority interest extreme right wing party. I think of them as the more acceptable face of groups like the BNP, etc. As far as I know their only policies are leaving the EU and conducting a hate campaign against all immigrant workers and asylum seekers in the UK. They represent the views of an ever-shrinking offensive minority.
Kate, London

Well, Kate from London, might I suggest that, before you start lobbing insults at people that you start getting your fucking facts straight, you dumb bitch? Here's the deal, love: the BNP are not right-wing. No, really, they aren't.

Have you ever read the BNP's manifestos? Probably not. It is actually one of those things that pisses me off about the blogosphere; we all sit here, congratulating ourselves on how very eloquent and well-informed we are, how very liberal and open-minded, my deee-ah and yet some people will not link to the BNP's site, let alone sully their eyes by reading the BNP manifestos. A blogger has written that they "just cover [their] ears" because the BNP "makes [them] feel sick"; and then confessed to not having read the manifesto.

Why not? Why not even link to them? Scared that your readers will be convinced and join? Don't we all rather consider ourselves the bastions of free speech? The guardians of letting-people-make-up-their-own-mindedness? So, if you haven't, go read.

What you will discover is that the BNP very much a left-wing, collectivist party. Their manifestos are all about "renationalisation", "quotas" and economic policies with features such as "Axiom #11: Owners should work, and workers should own." Whether those who vote for the BNP are aware of this (possibly) or simply vote for the BNP simply because they'll "keep the criminal immigrants out" (probably) is largely irrelevent when high-minded bloggers write these voters off as "knuckle-dragging morons". People are concerned about immigration, that is a fact; whether they are fools or not is another matter entirely (although I am sure that Martin would say not): it would appear, however, from the Have Your Say comments, that there are a goodly number people worrying about such issues.

(As an aside, I see that Martin is highlighting the government's intention to pay immigrants to leave: interestingly, this is a key BNP policy.)

In any case, Kate, my little poppet, concerns about immigration are not necessarily to do wiuth hating the fucking darkies, OK? Not, of course, that wee Morag Bisset from Scumdee would understand that.
Added: Saturday, 7 October, 2006, 17:10 GMT 18:10 UK
in responce to Ralph from Surrey
Immigration is hardly a new thing- its been happening ever since britian was "founded"- Celts, Picts, Irish, Viking, Norse...
The only boarders in this world are drawn on maps. People in the Uk need to stop being so Xenophobic and realise that we're all human!
Morag Bisset, Dundee

Och aye, Morag; how right you are. We are all human and because of that we are, in fact, possessed of only one culture on the planet, are we not, Morag? D'ye fancy a forced marriage now, Morag? Or having your clit sliced off just in case you end up getting inappropriately stimulated on the bus to work?

Not that Morag would really understand, of course; compared to many areas of England and contrary to the impression given by all of this "dawn raids" nonsense, Scotland has relatively few immigrants: a black face is still a novelty in most of Edinburgh, for instance. But, generally, Morag, British people are kind of used to seeing "darkies" and their objections to unfettered immigration tend to be just a wee bit more sophisticated.

Never mind, also on page 5 , is Alex MacAskill to teach us all the error of our ways: poor little Britain…
Added: Saturday, 7 October, 2006, 18:46 GMT 19:46 UK
The EU has many imperfections (CAP, corruption, waste)…

That's a little like saying that there were a few logistical problems with food distribution during Mao's revolution in China or that Stalin could get a tad touchy when criticised, frankly.
… but I think people on this website have an over inflated sense of this country's importance.

Oh, god, here we go again…
Do you really think people around the world are going to take notice of us little englanders on our own, especially given the rise of India and China? What influence do you think we have on the world?

Can anyone explain to me what this influence that we are supposed to have is? I mean, we have had quite a lot of influence in the Middle East over the last few years and, y'know, that ain't worked out so good.
The British empire is gone (for the better)and our influence is only going to get worse along with our comparative 'rich' country status. We need the EU!
Alex MacAskill, Colchester, United Kingdom

No, we don't, Alex. The only influence that we need to have is the ability to wave our arms in the air with the greatest excitement when the Chinese and Indian delegates say, "Hi! Would anyone like some really cheap imports? Y'know, cheap shoes and shit like that?" And then we can do the same when the Africans ask for volunteers to take a load of really good, cheap food off their hands.

That's the influence we need to have. What, of course, we'd like to do is to make sure that it is our tech and services experts, etc., who are advising the Indians and Chinese on the best way to expand their businesses (and keep their exports nice and cheap) but, unfortunately, we cannot really do that whilst we are in the EU, Alex, because we cannot negotiate trade deals independently, you fuckwit; this fact alone is estimated to cost the UK a lot of money (maybe £100 billion per annum).

Although the above seem to be the main delusions running through the discussion, ther are some more pieces of joy, like this on page 6.
Added: Saturday, 7 October, 2006, 18:49 GMT 19:49 UK
Maybe so, but I believe "the British majority" knows very little about Europe and certainly does not know of its benefits such as the minimum wage and the equal age of consent for gay men.

I'm ashamed to say that Telford, Shropshire, is my home town.
Cool Vibes, Midlands, United Kingdom

Personally, I'd be more ashamed at calling myself "Cool Vibes" or admitting that Telford was my home town but I suppose it takes all sorts.

Still, it's nice to know that "Cool" (can I call you "Cool"?) is impressed by two things that the government should have absolutely bugger all interference in anyway. Fucking age of consent? Since when was anyone prosecuted, seriously, for having underage sex? When was the last case involving homosexuals? Talk about a trivial load of old bollocks.

And the minimum wage? Hardly a roaring, fucking success and coupled with one of the most disgustingly cynical tax policies (the static PTA) of the last twenty years. Seriously, those are the two policies that you think best show off the EU's benefits? What kind of fucking moron are you?

Ooh, but this is a nice one on page 7.
Added: Saturday, 7 October, 2006, 16:00 GMT 17:00 UK
I'm not pro-labour, but anyone who is trying to make out that this country is in crisis needs a reality check. Healthcare problems? Education on the slide? Immigration out of control? Crimewaves? Go to Sudan or Angola and see how lucky you are - you moaning, fussy ungrateful, nit-picker.
Paul Tisdale, Nottingham

Thanks for that, Paul. Now, just a couple of things to point out here; firstly, let me know when the Anolas or the Sudanese are paying anywhere near £500 billion for their public services and then we'll have a comparison match, OK? Secondly, do you see the EU helping out these godforsaken countries. Er, no. In fact, I think that you will find that the EU does active harm, to all African countries, through the CAP and fishing policies. So stuff that in your trawler's net and smoke it.

Anyway, go and read more of the same, if you want; it is encouraging to see that the most endorsed are, by far, those in favour of UKIP. I'll leave you with this nugget.
Added: Saturday, 7 October, 2006, 17:39 GMT 18:39 UK
Out of the EU, lower tax, smaller government. Sounds like what I want. But I would prefer the Tories to be making these noises.
Steve, London

Well, yes, but, were that the case, UKIP would not actually need to exist. The Tories aren't saying it, give no signs of saying it (and have, in fact, declared that party pollicy is to be in the EU) and thus UKIP does exist. And notwithstanding my frustration in the post below, I think that they can be sufficiently moulded and generally made into a proper party. After all, remember what a joke the SDP were…?


Martin said...


Your comments about public ignorance of BNP policy are well-made.

Theirs is not cultural nor civic but racial nationalism, the king of fallacies. That's their ne plus ultra, and everything else is just rock n' roll.

The mainstream political parties should be ashamed of their collective enueresis in the BNP's face and start confronting it on its, not their, terms - it should take them no more than 30 minutes to rip it to shreds.

David Davis ought to be just the guy to do it.

Prodicus said...

BNP... left. Can't be said too often.

wonkotsane said...

"or admitting that Telford was my home town but I suppose it takes all sorts."
Hold on a minute, it's my home town as well! :o)

You're right about ignorant muppets who spout on about the "far-right" BNP obviously quite ignorant of the fact that they're a bloody left wing facist party more akin to the Communists than the Tories of old. In fact, are there any right wing parties left in the UK any more?

To your average Guardian reader anyone who suggests that perhaps immigrants shouldn't be treated better than the natives of this country is a right wing nazi.

The Nazi Party was left wing, so were the Facists. The BNP is an extreme-left party.

I've read the BNP manifesto and agree with a lot of it but I don't support the party because, despite their protestations, they're racists. You can serve shit up on a golden platter but it's still shit. If a party was to come along with similar policies to the BNP without the white-supremecist bullshit they'd romp home to victory.

Tristan said...

It cannot be said enough that the BNP are a far-left party (then again, far right and far left meet round the back).

Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" should be read and understood by all. Why did communists and fascists fight each other? Because they wanted the same collectivist people. It was the liberal who was the common enemy.

Of course, we all 'know' the left cannot be racist or nationalist, so the BNP /must/ be right wing.

It is one of the biggest cons of the collectivist to set up enemies who are collectivists to make themselves look.

Umbongo said...

It was Goebbels, I think, who when viewing a pre-1933 Communist parade remarked on what wonderful recruits to the NSDAP the parade participants would make. How right he was and how little times change.

Fruning Graplecard said...

As a sort of BTW, I am surprised you don't get more hate mail on these issues.

Recieved dumbass opinion equates the BNP with witchcraft and sodomizing babies and the only "safe" reply being to post such eloquent replies as "racist cunt" and "zenophobic bastard" etc.

My experience is that the majority out there still cover their ears when the BNP is mentioned and go "na,na,na,na,na Im not listening"

Devil's Kitchen said...

Hmmm, I actually get very little hatemail (and I have my very first troll on the Bob Piper post! Apparently, the most creative insults he can come up with is accusing me of not being able to write and calling me "amoeba". I'm quite enjoying his silliness in a perverse way) at all. As regards the BNP, I think that I have always made it quite clear that I don't support them, and the reasons for that. I have, I think, had the occasion "racist" accusation but not for a long time.

Mainly, however, I don't talk about immigration much at all: it isn't a topic that I am either particularly knowledgeable or decided on at present. Thus I don't get the normal trolls and bigots.


MatGB said...

Leftist liberal here; have read, and debunked, the BNP policies before, and will do so again (did it on a forum before I started blogging, but still).

And agree, they're further to the economic left than Labour, and extremely authoritarian/nationalist.

Labour are less left wing, less authoritarian, and less nationalist. The gap seems to increase regularly, unfortunately.

Still, it makes for an easy way of distinguishing people. I picked up teh Exeter student newspaper today while up there; they've passed a "no platform" policy and banned DebSoc from allowing them to send a rep to a debate. The number of idiots (in a renowned Tory/Right wing university) who keep describing them as "hateful right wingers" etc is depressing. I mean, I figured out that a lot of them were over educated idiots while there, but the letters page confirmed it...

MAybe, on a day when the muse won't strike, I'll update my debunking again. OR maybe run an LJ poll to see how some of the blithering idiots on UKPolitics respond to the policies...